Terrain
Terrain
I'd like to say two things:
Hi Q3mapping community.
Sorry Q3mapping community.
I realize Terrain mapping is something that has been discussed over and over again, but I need a veredict.
I've been searching mapping (mostly for Jedi academy, wich runs on q3) for a week now, and despite of my small practice, I'm eager to try terrain (with blending), the thing is, I would really like to try a method fairly more practical over brush by brush modelling.
I've run into different sets of brush tutorials and they range from triangle soap (or something like that) to edge grabing (or something similar)... well I'm particulary not a fan of trifaces and the edge grabbing tech gives a number a limitations over the axis and shapes of these brushes, otherwise they break on their adjacent vertices, (unfortunatly it took me 3 days to realize that, it was a blending guide but it totally overlooked this axis limitation). radiant 1.5 lets me grab multiple vertices, but I'm very limited to pulling them, because everything can just break since it allways tries to keep the quad faces planar, 1.4 shatters the faces into triangles without readjusting the remaining vertices, but apparently it can't grab several vertices (and at some point it was sujested that the possibility of concave brushes is a risk and a really bad thing)
I've run into plugins tryng to export meshes into brushes from 3ds max 9, tutorials over patches, easygen and some long dead links, it usually resumes to discarding the available options because brushes either come out broken (missing or with big gaps), because of lack of control over generated faces or because some other option lacks texture blending.
This last day I've run into the possibility of importing ase files, I admit I haven't tested it enough (in the ones I made, the player was still clipping through), but that already seens compromised since I may not be able to use blending, there may be issues with portals, and even if I import sections of the ase (to apply different textures and portals), I'm wondering if they would align on radiant, I can't see the ase models on radiant... plus blending relies on more than just shaders textures, I recall it requires some kind of worldspawn helper placed on the corners of the belnding brushes.
Bottom line, I realise how people dislike when someone goes straight for asking for help instead of searching, but I'm also a little bit tired of searching already (a week ago I didn't know how to make a map with skybox sunlight), I'm tired of getting excited over a possible solution and then realise it has a major drawback, and then I'm back to the beggining. So I'm just gonna ask, what are my options for making terrain with full control over my faces (i.e. no easygen or similar heigh generator) and still be able to use terrain blending? (or did I wast a lot of time and I should have spent this whole time modelling with brushes cuz there is really no better option?) do I have at least other mapping apps alternate to gtkradiant with more brush editing options?
Hi Q3mapping community.
Sorry Q3mapping community.
I realize Terrain mapping is something that has been discussed over and over again, but I need a veredict.
I've been searching mapping (mostly for Jedi academy, wich runs on q3) for a week now, and despite of my small practice, I'm eager to try terrain (with blending), the thing is, I would really like to try a method fairly more practical over brush by brush modelling.
I've run into different sets of brush tutorials and they range from triangle soap (or something like that) to edge grabing (or something similar)... well I'm particulary not a fan of trifaces and the edge grabbing tech gives a number a limitations over the axis and shapes of these brushes, otherwise they break on their adjacent vertices, (unfortunatly it took me 3 days to realize that, it was a blending guide but it totally overlooked this axis limitation). radiant 1.5 lets me grab multiple vertices, but I'm very limited to pulling them, because everything can just break since it allways tries to keep the quad faces planar, 1.4 shatters the faces into triangles without readjusting the remaining vertices, but apparently it can't grab several vertices (and at some point it was sujested that the possibility of concave brushes is a risk and a really bad thing)
I've run into plugins tryng to export meshes into brushes from 3ds max 9, tutorials over patches, easygen and some long dead links, it usually resumes to discarding the available options because brushes either come out broken (missing or with big gaps), because of lack of control over generated faces or because some other option lacks texture blending.
This last day I've run into the possibility of importing ase files, I admit I haven't tested it enough (in the ones I made, the player was still clipping through), but that already seens compromised since I may not be able to use blending, there may be issues with portals, and even if I import sections of the ase (to apply different textures and portals), I'm wondering if they would align on radiant, I can't see the ase models on radiant... plus blending relies on more than just shaders textures, I recall it requires some kind of worldspawn helper placed on the corners of the belnding brushes.
Bottom line, I realise how people dislike when someone goes straight for asking for help instead of searching, but I'm also a little bit tired of searching already (a week ago I didn't know how to make a map with skybox sunlight), I'm tired of getting excited over a possible solution and then realise it has a major drawback, and then I'm back to the beggining. So I'm just gonna ask, what are my options for making terrain with full control over my faces (i.e. no easygen or similar heigh generator) and still be able to use terrain blending? (or did I wast a lot of time and I should have spent this whole time modelling with brushes cuz there is really no better option?) do I have at least other mapping apps alternate to gtkradiant with more brush editing options?
Re: Terrain
Converting brushes to models is great! However, it's just silly exporting models to brushes. Throw those 3dsMax to brush export plugins out.
Triangle soup is kind of messy and doesn't give you a lot of options for shapes. Not personally recommended. But that doesn't mean the brush method doesn't work. Sock proved so with his map Pyramid of the Magician. He also wrote some handy tutorials on the best way of working with brushes for terrain as well as the most flexible way of doing terrain blending. Highly recommended:
http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles.htm
ASE files can work considerably well. Models by default are made to not clip. You can enable clipping of models by setting spawnflag 2 on the model in the entity inspector. It's a bit of a Q3Map2 hack, but it works reasonably well on large models with relatively low polygons. Supplement with ampule amounts of player+bot clip brushes. Models can take whatever shaders brushes can. See sock's tutorial above on the recommended way for terrain blending, same idea. Models will also not lightmap by default (vertex lighting only), but you can also force this in the shader or with spawnflag 4 (or spawnflag 6 if you want both lightmapped and autoclipped).
The only caveat with all of this is that bots are retarded. Particularly on complex maps with lots of clipping they find themselves lobotomized. It's a bit of a workaround, but you can use Q3Map2's -fixaas function with some elbow grease to solve this if you really want bots with your map. Sock also has a great tutorial on this:
http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/map ... m_bots.htm
Triangle soup is kind of messy and doesn't give you a lot of options for shapes. Not personally recommended. But that doesn't mean the brush method doesn't work. Sock proved so with his map Pyramid of the Magician. He also wrote some handy tutorials on the best way of working with brushes for terrain as well as the most flexible way of doing terrain blending. Highly recommended:
http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles.htm
ASE files can work considerably well. Models by default are made to not clip. You can enable clipping of models by setting spawnflag 2 on the model in the entity inspector. It's a bit of a Q3Map2 hack, but it works reasonably well on large models with relatively low polygons. Supplement with ampule amounts of player+bot clip brushes. Models can take whatever shaders brushes can. See sock's tutorial above on the recommended way for terrain blending, same idea. Models will also not lightmap by default (vertex lighting only), but you can also force this in the shader or with spawnflag 4 (or spawnflag 6 if you want both lightmapped and autoclipped).
The only caveat with all of this is that bots are retarded. Particularly on complex maps with lots of clipping they find themselves lobotomized. It's a bit of a workaround, but you can use Q3Map2's -fixaas function with some elbow grease to solve this if you really want bots with your map. Sock also has a great tutorial on this:
http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/map ... m_bots.htm
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Re: Terrain
really apreciate the feedback guys, now I have 2 really good technics at disposal.
went through a lot of tests and both ase importing and Sock's style feel a lot more confortable now (I din't like Sock's at first due to the dificulties/axis limitations, but it gives a very good vib of natural feeling to the map). And I was really excited about the ase importing into zbrush (its really as good as I expected) but when I pictured it I totally overlooked the fact that uvmapping would be a pain, specially if it's intended to use terrain blending later, plus I'm woried (haven't tried yet) about how would different *.ase sections in a single map connect their vertices to each other?
on a side note: is there a way to select multiple faces on radiant 1.5 like in 1.4? ctrl+shift click+drag on 1.4 gives me only the faces the cursor touches, on 1.5 it gives me a selection box and all the faces facing the camera (its win for brush & vertice selecting but not for faces alone), the problem is that it also gives me faces not visible to me that are still facing the camera (like how it also gives me the side faces of a series of ground brushes, when I should be texturing the up faces only)
on a not very related note, I thought the path for the files would be too big, so I made a copy of those same files on C:\base\textures\mystuff so when I use materials on 3ds max and export the ase file (and import the ase on radiant) radiant uses that as a relative path and it works like a charm, cuz now it's taking the files from the propper jedi academy folder, meaning they are visible in radiant and in the game after compile. But... q3map2GUI wich is a nice app, isn't doing the magic trick (I'm saving the map files on radiant and compiling on q3map2gui, iz faster) , the textures applied in the ase file from the same map made in radiant look untextured ingame, I tought maybe q3map2gui wasn't using relative paths like radiant, so I deleted the "C:\" portion of the path inside the ase file, but they still look untextured inside the game. it's not a real big problem since I can still compile from radiant, but learned to like q3map2gui quite a lot (so fast, and it visibly gives me all the options for compilation).
went through a lot of tests and both ase importing and Sock's style feel a lot more confortable now (I din't like Sock's at first due to the dificulties/axis limitations, but it gives a very good vib of natural feeling to the map). And I was really excited about the ase importing into zbrush (its really as good as I expected) but when I pictured it I totally overlooked the fact that uvmapping would be a pain, specially if it's intended to use terrain blending later, plus I'm woried (haven't tried yet) about how would different *.ase sections in a single map connect their vertices to each other?
on a side note: is there a way to select multiple faces on radiant 1.5 like in 1.4? ctrl+shift click+drag on 1.4 gives me only the faces the cursor touches, on 1.5 it gives me a selection box and all the faces facing the camera (its win for brush & vertice selecting but not for faces alone), the problem is that it also gives me faces not visible to me that are still facing the camera (like how it also gives me the side faces of a series of ground brushes, when I should be texturing the up faces only)
on a not very related note, I thought the path for the files would be too big, so I made a copy of those same files on C:\base\textures\mystuff so when I use materials on 3ds max and export the ase file (and import the ase on radiant) radiant uses that as a relative path and it works like a charm, cuz now it's taking the files from the propper jedi academy folder, meaning they are visible in radiant and in the game after compile. But... q3map2GUI wich is a nice app, isn't doing the magic trick (I'm saving the map files on radiant and compiling on q3map2gui, iz faster) , the textures applied in the ase file from the same map made in radiant look untextured ingame, I tought maybe q3map2gui wasn't using relative paths like radiant, so I deleted the "C:\" portion of the path inside the ase file, but they still look untextured inside the game. it's not a real big problem since I can still compile from radiant, but learned to like q3map2gui quite a lot (so fast, and it visibly gives me all the options for compilation).
Re: Terrain
Somewhere on this forum is a mini tut Obsidian did on setting up ase material paths in Max.
I use Blender not max, so I hand hack the material paths in the ase file. Visit http://www.katsbits.com for more info, and a ton of tuts on using meshes for terrain.
I use Blender not max, so I hand hack the material paths in the ase file. Visit http://www.katsbits.com for more info, and a ton of tuts on using meshes for terrain.
Re: Terrain
If you open up the .ASE file in a text editor, you'll see something like the following:
The important lines are the entries for *MATERIAL_NAME, *MAP_NAME and *BITMAP. The values of these should be the same name as your shader or texture path. Note the forward slashes.
Q3Map2 actually reads *BITMAP, so make sure this is correctly pointing to your shader. If it is left as the default texture that 3dsMax uses, Q3Map2 will automatically truncate and adjust this line, assuming that the texture path and shader name is actually the same thing (not always the case).
GtkRadiant uses either *MATERIAL_NAME or *MAP_NAME, I forgot which. I'm in the habit of checking the .ASE file after export and changing all three to the same.
Code: Select all
*MATERIAL_LIST {
*MATERIAL_COUNT 1
*MATERIAL 0 {
*MATERIAL_NAME "models/blastburn/utilities/fusebox"
*MATERIAL_CLASS "Standard"
*MATERIAL_AMBIENT 0.5882 0.5882 0.5882
*MATERIAL_DIFFUSE 0.5882 0.5882 0.5882
*MATERIAL_SPECULAR 0.9000 0.9000 0.9000
*MATERIAL_SHINE 0.1000
*MATERIAL_SHINESTRENGTH 0.0000
*MATERIAL_TRANSPARENCY 0.0000
*MATERIAL_WIRESIZE 1.0000
*MATERIAL_SHADING Blinn
*MATERIAL_XP_FALLOFF 0.0000
*MATERIAL_SELFILLUM 0.0000
*MATERIAL_FALLOFF In
*MATERIAL_XP_TYPE Filter
*MAP_DIFFUSE {
*MAP_NAME "models/blastburn/utilities/fusebox"
*MAP_CLASS "Bitmap"
*MAP_SUBNO 1
*MAP_AMOUNT 1.0000
*BITMAP "models/blastburn/utilities/fusebox"
*MAP_TYPE Screen
*UVW_U_OFFSET 0.0000
*UVW_V_OFFSET 0.0000
*UVW_U_TILING 1.0000
*UVW_V_TILING 1.0000
*UVW_ANGLE 0.0000
*UVW_BLUR 1.0000
*UVW_BLUR_OFFSET 0.0000
*UVW_NOUSE_AMT 1.0000
*UVW_NOISE_SIZE 1.0000
*UVW_NOISE_LEVEL 1
*UVW_NOISE_PHASE 0.0000
*BITMAP_FILTER Pyramidal
}
}
...
The important lines are the entries for *MATERIAL_NAME, *MAP_NAME and *BITMAP. The values of these should be the same name as your shader or texture path. Note the forward slashes.
Q3Map2 actually reads *BITMAP, so make sure this is correctly pointing to your shader. If it is left as the default texture that 3dsMax uses, Q3Map2 will automatically truncate and adjust this line, assuming that the texture path and shader name is actually the same thing (not always the case).
GtkRadiant uses either *MATERIAL_NAME or *MAP_NAME, I forgot which. I'm in the habit of checking the .ASE file after export and changing all three to the same.
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Re: Terrain
tiny question cuz I make far too many assuptions when I start anything:
I was under the impression that in other to work the visibility of my detail meshes, I had to divide my ase into different sectors, and assign each *.ase to a brush, and these brushes had to stay each inside certain portals and the engine would make the sections visible or not according to the portals (cuz the brush would still be a reference to the whole thing, as you see in radiant).
Does this proceed or not? If not, could I work the entire ASE as one and focus on area portals at a later time?
This whole thing is exciting and troublesome at the same time, I just can't decide over Simon's template building or good old modeling apps...
EDIT: oh well, nvm http://www.katsbits.com/cgi-bin/ikonboa ... 60#entry65
I was under the impression that in other to work the visibility of my detail meshes, I had to divide my ase into different sectors, and assign each *.ase to a brush, and these brushes had to stay each inside certain portals and the engine would make the sections visible or not according to the portals (cuz the brush would still be a reference to the whole thing, as you see in radiant).
Does this proceed or not? If not, could I work the entire ASE as one and focus on area portals at a later time?
This whole thing is exciting and troublesome at the same time, I just can't decide over Simon's template building or good old modeling apps...
EDIT: oh well, nvm http://www.katsbits.com/cgi-bin/ikonboa ... 60#entry65
Re: Terrain
The NetRadiant q3map2 compiler can automagically switch the material/bmp keywords in an exported .ase file to the correct shader paths using a switch I believe...
Yes, using these switches :
Yes, using these switches :
Code: Select all
convert -format ase -shadersasbitmap
Re: Terrain
You don't need to attach models to brushwork - I think you're referring to those special runtime and brush-based *entities* available in RtCW/ET editing (can't remember their name off the top of my head).Manganiac wrote:... I had to divide my ase into different sectors, and assign each *.ase to a brush, and these brushes had to stay each inside certain portals and the engine would make the sections visible or not according to the portals EDIT: oh well, nvm http://www.katsbits.com/cgi-bin/ikonboa ... 60#entry65
With regards to chopping models into sections, yes, you have to do that. Although the topic you linked to is for Quake 4, the priciple applies to any 'idtech' engine so it's well worth reading all the 'dev diary' entiries... I'd also add ( on the same page) this (player/bot clipping), this (model sections), and this (origin points)
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Re: Terrain
Obs,
The format of the texture/shader paths isn't quite right is it?
The bitmap line can be truncated. Watch for the pesky / and \ as well. That can be easily overlooked and cause you problems.
You can use multiple materials on ase models too, but each section of a model that has a different material attached to it needs to be separated before the entire mesh is exported. Not sure if it's Q3, Q3map2, or the Blender ase exporter that doesn't handle submaterials properly. In the ase text file you would then have to edit the 3 texture path lines for each material. This can be a huge pain in the arse though for models with many separate textures/shaders, very time consuming and tedious.
The format of the texture/shader paths isn't quite right is it?
Code: Select all
*MATERIAL_LIST {
*MATERIAL_COUNT 2
*MATERIAL 0 {
*MATERIAL_NAME "textures/dk_ng2/branch.tga"
*MATERIAL_CLASS "Standard"
*MATERIAL_AMBIENT 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
*MATERIAL_DIFFUSE 0.3454 0.3692 0.2097
*MATERIAL_SPECULAR 0.1250 0.1250 0.1250
*MATERIAL_SHINE 0.5000
*MATERIAL_SHINESTRENGTH 0.0881
*MATERIAL_TRANSPARENCY 0.0000
*MATERIAL_WIRESIZE 1.0000
*MATERIAL_SHADING Blinn
*MATERIAL_XP_FALLOFF 0.0000
*MATERIAL_SELFILLUM 0.0000
*MATERIAL_FALLOFF In
*MATERIAL_XP_TYPE Filter
*MAP_DIFFUSE {
*MAP_NAME "textures/dk_ng2/branch.tga"
*MAP_CLASS "Bitmap"
*MAP_SUBNO 1
*MAP_AMOUNT 1.0000
*BITMAP "..\textures\dk_ng2\branch.tga"
*MAP_TYPE Screen
*UVW_U_OFFSET 0.0000
*UVW_V_OFFSET 0.0000
*UVW_U_TILING 1.0000
*UVW_V_TILING 1.0000
*UVW_ANGLE 0.0000
*UVW_BLUR 1.0000
*UVW_BLUR_OFFSET 0.0000
*UVW_NOUSE_AMT 1.0000
*UVW_NOISE_SIZE 1.0000
*UVW_NOISE_LEVEL 1
*UVW_NOISE_PHASE 0.0000
*BITMAP_FILTER Pyramidal
}
}
You can use multiple materials on ase models too, but each section of a model that has a different material attached to it needs to be separated before the entire mesh is exported. Not sure if it's Q3, Q3map2, or the Blender ase exporter that doesn't handle submaterials properly. In the ase text file you would then have to edit the 3 texture path lines for each material. This can be a huge pain in the arse though for models with many separate textures/shaders, very time consuming and tedious.
Re: Terrain
It's idtech/Q3M2 that can't handle ASE models with multi(ple)-material so yes, meshes need to be broken into sections *per material* and then exported as a 'group' of objects (as you said). If you leave multiple materials on a section the game will apply the first material it finds over everything.
[url=https://www.katsbits.com/tutorials#q3w]Tutorials, tools and resources[/url]
Re: Terrain
Shame Q3map2 never dealt with that issue. The Unreal3 tech was/is so much easier to work with in that regard. I like the way you can apply textures/materials in the editor as well.
Re: Terrain
@silicone_milk


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Re: Terrain
@Anthem
Wut? Did you post in the wrong thread?
Wut? Did you post in the wrong thread?
Well, to be fair, those two engines are quite a few generations apart. This might be better on idTech 5 (and a more fair comparison).dONKEY wrote:Q3map2 vs. Unreal3
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Re: Terrain
I was referring to what DK said about q3map2 not being able to do something since s_m is working on q3map3. 

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Re: Terrain
@Obs, I understand that and wasn't comparing really. Idtech4 was a pain for the same reason, although only had one line to edit for each material. The model still had to be separated out before export though.
As much as Idtech3 for me is still the most fun to work with, the handling of multi-materials is very boring.
@Anth (and SM)...was that too obvious? Absolutely was directed to SM
As much as Idtech3 for me is still the most fun to work with, the handling of multi-materials is very boring.
@Anth (and SM)...was that too obvious? Absolutely was directed to SM
