Graveyard (update)

[Dessicated corpse]

Is this any better?

GRAVEYARD

Screenshots...








I know about the fog problem, I don't know what it is.

[Anthem]

1. Why do you need to post a new thread about this? Considering your last thread was "pre-alpha", I think this would be better off in that topic to give it some more substance.

2. How is this a graveyard? There is nothing that seems to hint about anything related to a graveyard, so I feel the title of the map is inappropriate.

3. It looks a lot better than your last release, so good job with that. I like that you are using a few more curves too, but you may have gone overboard with it in the first two screens (the pits of death). It also looks like you didn't put the rain where the fire is, which is good. Keep at it, though. It can only get better.

[Dessicated corpse]

1. Well, because I've... changed it alot. I don't think it's a pre-alpha anymore and the thread was locked.
2. Can't find a name .
3. Thanks alot. The green fog isn't a pit of death, it's just broken fog, I want the surface below the fog to be visible to the players that are above the fog like other Quake 3 maps, I had it working for a while but it then stopped working. I added the green fog for a theme. The only pit of death is at the last 2 shots (the orange fog). And I was kinda testing with curved surfaces with this map.

Ahh yes, I dumped the original version and though fuck it, so I redone it again . Hey, does anyone know how to align curved surfaces? I try to use surface inspector but it doesn't work with curved surfaces :/.

[obsidian]

As I've said to you before, get a map 90% finished before you post it. You shouldn't be posting maps with broken fog. This map is still so unfinished, you shouldn't be posting it yet.

Half of your textures are missing from the PK3. There is something wrong with your lightmaps, they are rainbow coloured... I think you are using deluxemaps instead of lightmaps. Deluxemaps are not supported by Quake3. Do not compile with -deluxe.

You might want to turn off the rain, use a more efficient method (like particles) or make it less dense. It's a HUGE frame rate killer and it's actually making my GTX 280 spin up the fans for a 10 year old game. Someone running on slightly older hardware is going to have a hard time running this map.

It's not entirely apparent which fog is fog you can enter and which is a fog of death (by the RL stairs). Either make fog the type you can jump into, or make it all fog of death, but having 2 different kinds just makes things confusing.

The central pit area serves absolutely no purpose. It has a RA in the corner, but other than that it's completely empty. There is only one jump pad back up, so if you think in terms of gameplay, if you fall or drop down, the other player will be able to predict that you HAVE to go to the one jump pad to get back up. Essentially, you're a sitting duck. You need to think more about gameplay when making your layouts. Just making a box and filling it with stuff doesn't work well.

You need to work on texture transitions. In many places you have a wall or floor of one texture and it changes to something with another texture on it. If it's part of the same section of wall or floor, it shouldn't all of a sudden change textures. People don't build walls of many different types of materials, alternating between them for no reason. If you alternate between a wall and a pillar, that makes sense. Your transitions seem to be pretty random.

Do you even test your own maps before uploading them? I suggest you make a "clean" install of Q3 in another folder or on another computer. Keep it free of other maps and mods or development files. When you're done your map, copy it over to the clean install and test it to make sure you don't have missing textures. I don't know why you bothered to send people rainbow coloured lightmaps, that's just inexcusable. If you're going to be incredibly lazy about testing and packing your own maps, people aren't going to be very inclined to help you test them either.

The only good thing I can say about it is that you're learning to use patches.



And for patch texture alignment question:
Surface inspector is only for brushes, use patch inspector (shift+s on GtkRadiant 1.5.0).

[Dessicated corpse]

Well, I have no idea how to fix the fog.

I though the custom textures in already. And what is deluxemaps? I don't even use that to compile. I use Quake Toolkit to compile and I use dark, normalmap, smooth, shadeangle and sky for paraments. And I don't even know what you mean by rainbow colored.

I though about the rain, I'll try.

The orange fog was a bit if a test, and it was in the original version so I decided to copy it. But, it's not like keeping it's going to hurt the gameplay.

I copied it from the original version too, and the jumppad. I'll add more jumppads and items in the next update. And I'm trying my hardest thinking about gameplay.

I don't know what you mean, I never really done too many texture transitions.

Yes, always. And I was sure that I put the textures in the pk3, I'll try and find the missing ones.

Yeah, and I took time reading your post. I'm not ignoring you.

[Eraser]

Ironic. Dessicated Corpse is using a tool I created to compile his maps. That surely means all his maps are tainted in some way?

That staircase area in the last two screenshots looks pretty neat though.

[Anthem]

You forgot to pack the rain texture, so fix that and I will give you some feedback about the map.

[deqer]

I just want to say that no matter how hard you get bashed by others here, Dessicated Corpse, please don't give up. Please keep mapping. No suicide.

[Dessicated corpse]

Update

GRAVEYARD 0.2



Changes:

-Missing textures fixed
-Missing music fixed
-New area added
-Holes fixed

Please report any bugs, thanks. I'll do something about the fucking rain later, ok?

I just want to say that no matter how hard you get bashed by others here, Dessicated Corpse, please don't give up. Please keep mapping. No suicide.

Sure...

[deqer]

I'm sorry, but I ain't downloading or playing that map based off what I can see in that screenshot.

This may be your first map or your second map, and you're proud of it, and that's fine. But Quake3 has been around for a long time now, and we're only interested in seeing good stuff now.

That screenshot looks as though you did not do any work on "lighting", and if those are holes in the ground then I know this is not going to be a fun map to play. People will fall in those holes and it will become an annoying map.

[Dessicated corpse]

I fixed the holes, and they were only small ones that you couldn't even notice, and I don't want it to be so fucking bright like all your maps are. I might as well leave this forum and give up mapping. Your post is basically saying "I'm too lazy to download your map, so I'm going to judge it by the screenshot you gave us.".

[Anthem]

I am going to be honest with my feedback.

First I want to ask: what type of gameplay is this map primarily geared toward? The size is rather small, so I think it would have to be a 2v2 TDM (4 FFA) or a tourney map. If I'm to be honest, I want to see you convert this into a tourney map. You are well on your way to creating your first good release, so don't leave these like you did the others. It's understandable to make a few maps just to play around with things. This one doesn't seem to be an exception.

You are obviously testing rain and curves. While curves are a nice touch to a map, I feel you went a bit overboard with the curves in many areas. You made some areas that could be more simple, complex.

Here is an example of what you could do (I apologize that the pictures I made are inaccurate or sloppy):

Current Layout:
Center
Overall

Possible Layout:
Center and Overall

The center is much simpler, but it still serves the same purpose.

The other area of concern is the rain and fog. Too much of these things is draining on the computer resources. I get about 50 FPS when I'm in the center and I have a quad core computer with high end dual video cards. In a ten year old game that is bad. I strongly recommend getting rid of the rain to alleviate FPS drop and to make the map more realistic. You have skull torches in the same area that it is raining. In reality, the torches would be extinguished if it was raining. The fog also causes some strain on my computer. I really recommend dropping the fog to about foot level to make it more of an ambient effect rather than an obtrusion. If you intended to keep the fog as an obstacle, I recommend just using level-wide fog that is less intense (opacity of about 5-10%). This will create the atmosphere you were going for while not being too obstructive to game play.

The other problems are with the layout. You have Quad Damage, Mega Health, Red Armor, Railgun and a +50 Health all in one little area. This is entirely unbalanced even for such a small map. I recommend doing the following:

Remove the Red Armor nook (and the Red Armor entirely)
Make the Mega Health more accessible and get rid of that hidden teleport and random floating player clip that is used to reach the Mega Health (place it in the center on the bridge)
Replace the Medkit with a Yellow Armor (the other Yellow Armor is actually in a good spot, so this will even out the removal of the Red Armor while also balancing the health)
Replace the Armor Shards by the current Yellow Armor with +5 Healths
Remove the Quad Damage entirely
Place the shotgun that is currently on the middle level on the mid platform behind the jump pad; move the wall back like in this picture
Replace the +50 Health with a weapon (preferably a Lightning Gun or Plasma Gun)
Add more ammo boxes

Another thing you could do to increase connectivity is to add two teleporters to the map. This will make the map more fast paced and fun to play. Two places that would be acceptable for teleporters would be at the bottom of the stairs by where the Medkit was located and here under the high platform.


Anyway, your map seems as though it would suit the tourney gametype considerably well. Think about my suggestions and the reasoning behind them. I don't expect you to do all of them, but at least consider them for the balance of your map. Should you wish to make the map TDM simply place a Quad Damage where the Mega Health would be for TDM only. You have a good start here, so keep it up. Hopefully you can learn a lot from this experience.

P.S. I want to mention that the sky texture isn't animated and it acts like a normal, solid brush. Also, the gothic block texture above the Medkit is missing.

[Silicone_Milk]

I fixed the holes, and they were only small ones that you couldn't even notice, and I don't want it to be so fucking bright like all your maps are.

You can still have good lighting and keep your map dark such as xpac's Black Town map.

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/shot0001-8.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/shot0002-7.jpg[/lvlshot]

[deqer]

nice write-up Anthem.

It takes time to review a map, write-up paragraphs about it, provide drawings, and I hope Dessicated corpse gives that write-up the appreciation it deserves.

[Anthem]

xpac's Black Town

I love this map regardless of the numerous bugs.

[Eraser]

I might as well leave this forum and give up mapping.

Ok guys, time for the final push.

[dONKEY]

Anth, I would have gone for Glassman's Dead Souls for a dark map that really works.
Black Town is great, but full of errors...anyway...very gd review. I have to ask myself why you bothered though. Initially I thought this guy spoke English as a second or third language. His apparent rudeness was down to communication. According to his profile he is Australian. Just can't see why you want to waste your time like this.

[obsidian]

@DONKEY:

I think he's just very young and naive. You know kids these days...

I'd like to see him finish his map and do a great job of it, he just needs to learn a few things about forum etiquette (he could use #1-24, but I think we could all use a little more #25) and to stop posting maps when he still has unplayable bugs.




@Dessicated Corpse

I've said this before, and I'll say it one last time... Fix ALL (and I mean ALL) of the bugs and important suggestions that people posted about before you come up with a new version. Otherwise, you're just spamming the thread with versions that no one will bother looking at. You should have done something about that rain and fog when I first suggested it, not say, "I'll get to it later, but here's a new version with more or less the same bugs!". Why would I bother looking at it when it has the same bugs? Take some time and pride in your work instead of sending us half-baked maps, I'm not going to bother with those.

[monaster]

about xpac's Black Town

That for sure was some damn fine looking map. Almost forgot that one, thanks for reminding me.

I just want to say that no matter how hard you get bashed by others here, Dessicated Corpse, please don't give up. Please keep mapping. No suicide.

That needs the "Rocky" theme - now.

[roughrider]

I might as well leave this forum and give up mapping.

Ok guys, time for the final push.

Stop.

You were a n00b once.

[Eraser]

I was, but at least I never questioned the suggestions of more experienced people. I never told other people that the problem was theirs. I never spammed up the forum with a gazillion screenshots of a map that's barely worth showing after people have asked not to do that several times. I didn't ignore the suggestions and tips people gave me for my maps. I didn't go around calling people morons because they criticized my work.

My attitude towards help and suggestions has always been a positive and grateful one. You see, Dessicated Corpse has received TONS of help. In fact, his attitude has caused people like Anthem here to go out on a limb and really make an effort to help him and make it painfully clear that it's all ment as help and not as destructive feedback. Yet Dessicated Corpse spits in our eyes.

Just see here, for example. Page one, he gets lots of help, but by the time we're halfway page 2, he's reacting in a negative way to suggestions, irritating those trying to help him. If anyone's at fault here, it's Dessicated Corpse. So I'm sorry, but simply saying that his attitude is warranted by the fact that he's a noob really is misguided and naive. I'd be more than happy to help him. I've tried to do so on more than one occasion. I've given honest feedback and suggestions. What has it gotten me? Probably that I ended up on his ignore list.

If Dessicated Corpse changes his attitude and his way of work then I'm willing to honestly try and help him again. You know, I really think that if Dessicated Corpse took our advice to heart and had a more positive attitude, he could create some fancy maps. There is actual improvement visible in his work and I applaud that. But as long as his attitude doesn't improve, he won't receive the enthusiastic credit for his work that he could deserve.

edit:
this thread is an even better example of things turning sour because of his attitude.

[obsidian]

FYI: I deleted/moved most of the worst offenders and put them in The Void:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=44681

If Dessicated Corpse changes his attitude and his way of work then I'm willing to honestly try and help him again. You know, I really think that if Dessicated Corpse took our advice to heart and had a more positive attitude, he could create some fancy maps. There is actual improvement visible in his work and I applaud that. But as long as his attitude doesn't improve, he won't receive the enthusiastic credit for his work that he could deserve.

Well said, but at the same time, I wouldn't go around intentionally trying to provoke him, that's not in the general spirit of LEM. If you don't feel like interacting with him, ignore him. That's why I suggested before that people put him on their ignore list if they don't want to talk to him, it's better than getting into any confrontation.

[roughrider]

My attitude towards help and suggestions has always been a positive and grateful one.

Yes I know and that doesn't go un-noticed. I have seen your work and you did gobble up the knowledge that was provided to you.

So I'm sorry, but simply saying that his attitude is warranted by the fact that he's a noob really is misguided and naive. I'd be more than happy to help him. I've tried to do so on more than one occasion. I've given honest feedback and suggestions. What has it gotten me? Probably that I ended up on his ignore list.

I wasn't suggesting that his attitude was right, I was actually making a point that you have been down that road, just like the rest of us, and have been here for a while and now how it works around here. I also saw where you were trying to help and thanks came from "DC" in the posts I did read. You might also note where I told him that I, like most other mappers, wont download it until it gets to beta stage.

You know, I really think that if Dessicated Corpse took our advice to heart and had a more positive attitude, he could create some fancy maps. There is actual improvement visible in his work and I applaud that. But as long as his attitude doesn't improve, he won't receive the enthusiastic credit for his work that he could deserve.

Understand that I am not bashing you and I understand what you are saying, but it would be easier to ignore him like obsidian suggested. Don't ya think?

From my stand point and view of what he is doing/trying to do, I take it with a grain of salt. I see his improvements and I see where it has gotten "touchy" from all sides in replies. I don't condone his actions because he is a n00b, and even more so, not yours or the others either because we do have scabs and callus's from the length of time here .
I am glad that people are trying to help and it can be a touchy situation when one side gets irritated, regardless of how it started. My suggestion is that when it starts to get that way from one side or the other, just do a side-step out of the way and let one of us handle the issue.

[Eraser]

I suddenly feel like hugging.
No seriously, I'll get off his back as it's not really constructive here.

[roughrider]

I suddenly feel like hugging.
No seriously, I'll get off his back as it's not really constructive here.

Thank-you sire. Haha