[FINAL] desctf1 - Overgrowth

[VolumetricSteve]

You have 56 jump pad reachable areas? Seriously?

Ok....with your specialized bot map....and I do hope it's a seperate bot map you're combining in....are you compiling with -forcesidesvisible?


because from what you showed me, it looks like you only have -optimize turned on. You might need -forcesidesvisible.

[Despair]

yea, i was wondering about that myself. there are actually only 24 jump pads in the map, so i'm guessing it's just counting the surrounding surfaces as multiple areas. I am using a seperate map for bots, yes. I'm using the method sock does in this thread almost verbatim; http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31963. The exception being i use different switches for my light stage. So, first i do a -meta and -vis compile on my bot map, then bspc with -forcesidesvisible -bsp2aas. next rename the bot.aas to match the real map, then compile w/ -fixaas, -meta,-vis, and my -light settings. then a final bspc with -optimize and -reach. I tried adding in -forcesidesvisible to the final bspc, but the results were the same.

[Despair]

So I've managed to get the bots performing rather well. They can access the whole map now and are actually wandering around it a fair bit on their own, rather than only when chasing a flag carrier like before. There are a couple areas that still need a bit of tweaking, but overall I'm pleased with the result so far.

My only concern is that I'm still getting the stuttering with bots in game. I'm pretty confident that I'm doing everything correctly, so I shouldn't be having this issue. Then it occured to me, maybe the problem isn't with the map or botfiles. Maybe it's something isolated to my system, or perhaps Windows 7.

So I've repacked the newest version. If someone could test how the bots run that'd be great. Hopefully it IS just my system and I can stop racking my brain

I'm seeing fewer and fewer things to add/change/fix as I go through the map each time I load it up, so I think I'm getting close to a release candidate. If anyone has any suggestions, or notices anything i've missed, that'd be great. One thing I've just thought of, for instance, is location entities, which i will include next.

Original DL link updated.

[obsidian]

Have you used any clusterportals in your maps to help the bots with navigating large sections of your map (you should if you haven't)?

[VolumetricSteve]

I just ran the latest version on my sad, sad, broken as hell first generation macbook and I didn't see any stuttering of any kind. I also didn't see most of the textures load correctly either, so...I don't know if you got around to fixing that or not. My Quake 3 install could just be ultra-broken to match the ultra-broken laptop it's on. I'm surprised this thing still boots. Anyway, I think your bots are alive and well.

[Despair]

I'm a moron. I did the fix the pak, but then I went and did the same thing I screwed up the first time . lol. link updated again.

Well, if the bots run well on that, I guess I don't have anything to worry about. . The stuttering I'm getting must just be Win7 griping over the old tech.

@Obsidian: Yea, the whole map has clusterportals. I could probably even reduce the number now, but I think I'll just leave it, since the bots are working well as it is. Just need to tweak a couple botroams.

[monaster]

@Despair: Lurking here and then releasing that map has one of your best ideas ever, pal! That's certainly a great contribution to the Quake3 community, for sure. Congratulations!
There's not much left regarding praises that hasn't already been done in the earlier posts, so I'll go straight to my feedback. It's for the first version you posted, I didn't have enough time to test you newest upload yet, so there might be things that are already fixed, I don't hope so, but just sayin'. By the way, I didn't have any problems with missing textures whatsoever.

Clipping error:



Recursive portal at one of your mirror teleporters:



Three things here: weaponclip the statue, it's strange to walk right through it; plus: the mirror type brush seen in the upper half of the screenshot: it reflects something, but since it's not recognizable, you should better do something about it or rethink a mirror like surface in an otherwise stony environment. Last thing here: here's the first yellow armor being too high to reach it with a normal jump and without 125 max_fps and so on, lower that platform a few units since rj takes away up to 50 hp making a 50 armor useless:



2nd hard-to-reach yellow armor:


Once again: Beautiful map, well done!

[Despair]

Thanks man. Yea, a couple textures were broken in the first upload, so you have newer than that. I fixed that promptly but pulled a stupid and did the same mistake last night. heh.

-Yep, that column is indeed messed up.
-That is an odd error. Never seen it before, nor do I know what it means. I do not get it on my system. Does anyone else get this or know the cause?
-I had intended to clip the statue, but it got overlooked.
-That brush is just a placeholder for quakelive ads (as that is the game this map is intended for). I will probably compile a q3 version without them if it isn't accepted. As for the 'reflection' it's just the shiny effect of that shader, not an actual mirror.
-I wasn't aware ppl still had issues completing jumps like these. I thought the fps dependance was removed in q3. Maybe it was a mod that did that. I know it's fixed in QL. I will go ahead and lower them a bit though.

Good finds. Thanks.

[mrd]

Recursive mirror means that the camera of the mirror surface points at the mirror itself. Think of a hall-of-mirrors effect, similar to when you go outside the hull of a map with /r_clear set to 0.

[Despair]

@mrd: hrmm... well, the portals are constructed correctly (double checked). The only way i can think one would be 'pointing' at the other, is if the lower one is somehow seeing the upper one through the caulk hull (lower is a bit further back). I noticed he is running version 1.30. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

Well, I think I've reached RC stage. I've run out of things that I can see to add/work on. I would add alot more detail, but I want the map to remain playable and r_speeds are a bit high in places already.

Latest changes:
-added location entities.
-added decals for weapon spawns.
-added some slight fog and plants to water.
-various minor texture fixes.
-tweaked bot play
-decided on a name - "Overgrowth"

To do:
-?

So, any final thoughts, recommendations?

Original DL link updated.

[DaEngineer]

Yep, there's something you still could improve The map is already an remarkable piece of eyecandy, but I have some considerations:

- the blue and red arrow decals cause z-Fighting when shooting at them. That's a problem I had with Shibam too. To avoid this, don't use them like decals - instead, put them slightly above the ground, 0.125 Units are just fine. Then remove the offset line in the shader and add "surfaceparm nomarks" if necessary. I don't know if there's a solution for this problem, but that's the only workaround I know. It seems Quake simply does not like opaque textures with alphachannels used as decals
- the waterfalls cut into the rocks when moving back and forth (3rd picture). Push the vertices out a bit, that should do the job
- the portals you used sways from left to right. I find this effect annoying. If you do so too, you can stop this behaviour by adding the key "spawnflags" with a value of "4" to the misc_portal_camera entity
- the blue bricks hurt in the eyes. Putting the saturation down a bit would be more eye friendly
- the first times I used the jumppads I found myself falling down again. It's a bit confusing they don't push you forward, or if they do, then just slightly. It's a matter of taste, but I find getting pushed in the right direction easier, as you know where to continue your route
- the ivy in some places could use some tweaking. You can see the texture repeat where it surely shouldn't (2nd picture). It's hard to see, I just discovered it because I noticed some flickering
- there are some places where the terrain brushes have gaps between them which allow you to look into the void. I used "r_clear 1" to look for these spots. When you can't fix these places straightaway, try putting the vertices with CTRL+G back on the grid.

Here are some pictures that will help you:




But regardless of these small problems your map is a damn good piece of work!

[spirit_]

Just had a short run through it and then played a short bot game. Great map, a bit confusing in the beginning because even the base felt a bit like a maze but it was good fun after learning it. It also looks hot.

It could use some more direction markers and I agree with DaEngineer on the saturation of the blue bricks.

[Despair]

Thanks again for all the testing/comments guys. Next RC is done and up.

Latest Changes/Fixes
-Fixed some z-fighting spots
-blocked a LOS from portal area to rail
-more textures alignments
-replaced brick texture (happy yet cityy? )
-fixed various seams on rock faces
-fixed waterfalls cutting into the rock face while moving
-added more pathmarkers and fixed their z-fighting issue with marks
-removed the quakelive ad spot placeholders
-smoothed some clips
-added spawnflags 4 to misc_portal_camera entities to remove cam sway (still sways for me though, is something else needed?)

So, hopefully I've gotten to all the errors, and I can finally release this map. On that note, since this is the first map I've actually finished, what consists of a typical 'release' anyway? Do ppl only submit to lvlworld, or are there other sites that are used? I know most host on a personal site, but I don't have one of those.

Thanks again everyone.

[Anthem]

If you wait another day or two I will give some feedback. I have been busy lately with judging the 20 brush competition. I will take a look around and see if I can't contribute anything.

Feel free to submit it to lvlworld when it's done. That is quite typical.

[DaEngineer]

I tested your map again and there are still some things that could be improved.

- regarding the problem with the swaying portals: I decompiled your map to find out what's causing this problem. You added spawnflags 4 only to the lower portals and forgot to add this key to the upper ones, that's why they still sway
- about the decals: good to see the z-Fighting is gone. You could further improve these decals by decreasing the distance to the ground. The space between decals and floor amounts 1 unit. When you click on "Grid" in Radiant's upper toolbar, you can select a grid that's even finer. 0.125 units can barely be recognized as a visible gap ingame, give it a try
Also, delete the line "cull none" from the decal's shader. As you can't see their back side, it's unnecessary to render it
- there are still some gaps (pictures below)
- you should playerclip some openings to the sky. There are several places where you can rocketjump on bridges or look into the void from above (pictures below). There are more than just these two places on the pictures!
- I've seen two places where bots are getting stuck and refuse to continue (pictures below)
- there's one place where you can see a piece of architecture you shouldn't (picture below)



I can't find anything else that could be improved. I can't judge botplay as they are still not clever enough to be competitive in every case. But keep up the work on this anyway, this map is epic!

[Despair]

Anthem, thanks. Busy time right now so it will likely take me a couple days to fix what DaEngineer found anyway.

-whoops. dunno how i missed setting the keys for the 2nd portals.
-originally i did raise the decals by 0.25 units (smallest in 1.4), but for some reason it compiled with them level to the floor still. not sure if i just accidentally undid the move or what. I'll give it another try.
-I had also pruned my shader file, including those cull lines, but I guess I forgot to update the shader in the pk3.
-I had a feeling there were still more seams to fix. I only run quake at 800x600 so it's hard to see some of them.
-I will clip those areas as well. Not sure why i was thinking to leave them open.
-I added some botclip steps in the bot map to help the bots with that area in the waterhall. Seems i didn't copy them back into the full map. Having to maintain two maps together sure can be irritating, lol. Hopefully that's the only reason they're getting stuck. I don't expect they'll ever be 'competitive' though.
-I will fix that visible piece as well

Thanks again for the comments.

[Anthem]

I'll be honest: It seems to be unreasonable to think that I would be able to memorize the layout of a map this large by just running around. I tried my best to gather my bearings, so I hope I'm not too discombobulated to form coherent thoughts and ideas. It's definitely a nice piece of work, though, and I enjoyed running through the map.

Here are some things to consider:

It is a large map and the only power up is a mid Quad Damage. Perhaps you should place a more passive power up such as regeneration or haste in each of the bases. After all, this map will be played by no less than 8 (4v4) people at a time.

Despite having an incredibly large map, I feel there are too many railgun spawns. I think the one in the base should stay, but the one closest to mid should be changed into a weapon that is lesser featured but should also have more use.

Tying the two above suggestions together, I would remove the railgun from this spot and move the lightning gun in the distance here.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ot0009.jpg

I would then move the grenade launcher from this spot into the previous location of the lightning gun.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ot0008.jpg

Then, place the power up where the grenade launcher was previously located. This location is safely nestled in the base, so it's more likely that the team in whose base the power up resides will receive the power up. Again, I recommend placing a Regeneration or Haste in the base. Definitely not Quad damage.

The area on the lower level of the flag room (directly under the flag) is a bit bare. Perhaps you could place something like ammo there.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ot0003.jpg

The jump pad closest to the visor statue (going downward) is a bit weak when used from this side:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ot0007.jpg

Perhaps make the pad push the players farther upward to compensate.

I also don't like the visor statues at all. I feel they detract from the interesting atmosphere and theme of your map. I think it would be more appropriate to have a support where they are located.

I also don't like the wood texture you used. Perhaps you could use something like this one that was used in Hipshot's "Solitude":



The pebble texture used as the surface underwater seems a tad inappropriate as well. I feel a texture that looks more like dirt or sand would be better.

Some errors:

Jump pads seem to have a texture missing:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ot0004.jpg

This wall's texture is not aligned:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ot0001.jpg

This shotgun spawn is not on the decal. It is only like this in the blue base, not the red:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ot0006.jpg

Congratulations on the first release. It's very well done. I look forward to playing it in the future.

[Despair]

Yea, the item placement is the one thing i've not really received any significant input on. I've never felt confident that my item layout was good, merely, okay. I like those suggestions though, and will implement them for sure. I think i will go for a base haste rather than regen. Since rl, rg, mega, ya, and ra are so close to flag, i don't want the defenders to become complete tanks while attackers are crossing the map.

I've never really liked the statue either tbh. Just couldn't really come up with something better at the time. The space felt a bit too open without something there so i stuck that in. Guess i kind of accepted the statue and didn't think to change it later on. A broken support could work.

As for the pebbles, it is a bit hard to see, due to the light level, but in the caves i have something more like you described. I'll go ahead and move that look over as well.

I'll also replace the wood texture, but i'll make my own, as i want to keep this map eligible for quakelive. Not that Hipshot's is bad ofc .

The texture under the pad is just a base texture, or so i thought. I guess it must be a mapmedia texture.

Great feedback. Thanks alot.

[Despair]

OK, so I'm pretty sure i'm ready to mark this map as final, but I'll hold off one more time to get a final test/check through, just to be sure.

There are still a couple known errors, but they are minor imo. There are still minor seams on some rock faces. I've been fighting these for several days now, each time i fix one others seem to crop up. So I will give those one more pass for the final compile and be done with them. Hopefully no more will pop up.

Another problem is some LOD issues on patches, most notably in the water tunnels looking from YA side. They are fine up close, but break up at a distance. I've not been able to find a solution thus far. Compiling with -patchmeta does fix the issue, but causes r_speeds to get very high everywhere else, so i couldn't use that. Combining the problem patches in a func_group also didn't work, nor did increasing the rows and/or cols in said patches. Any ideas?

Since last release, i've changed a few textures, went with Anthem's item layout suggestions, and replaced the statue with a slightly broken support. Otherwise, everything is pretty much done i think. Unless anyone has some new opinions.

As usual, Original link has been updated.

[Kaz]

Not sure if someone picked up on this or not - the blue lights in the ceiling right near the visor statue (above the skeleton), both pairs are stretched. I might have an older version though...

I have to say this is a really amazing piece of work and you should be really proud of it cause it rocks (visually, can't say anything about CTF layouts really). Good Job!

[Anthem]

The torches on the left should be brought up a bit, they seem to be too close to the ground. The torch on the right should be brought down. It seems really high compared to the other torches. If you want the other torch to be higher still bring up the other torches a bit.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... ctf1_b.jpg

The changes you've made seem good to me.

[Despair]

Thanks Kaz. I am proud of the final look I've gotten. Although it took far longer than it should have to complete, I have learned/relearned alot and am motivated for my next map. I just want to be done with this one already though. Fixing all these tiny errors is getting quite tedious. heh.

I did fix those lights a few versions ago tho, so you may want to dl the newest. It looks better . Double checking those lights did point out a missing patch in the current build, however, so it looks like i get to compile yet again. heh. So if you guys could scour it for anything else, I'd appreciate it. Hopefully for the last time .

Here is a screenshot of the LOD problem i mentioned in my last post. Anyone know a solution?
[lvlshot]http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4553/shot0002h.jpg[/lvlshot]

@Anthem, Yea you're right. I'll align those torches better.

[Silicone_Milk]

Despair, to fix the lod issue, compile your map with the -patchmeta flag during the BSP compile stage.

Just skimmed your previous post. Use less patches?

You could always model those frames with the problem lod issues as .ase models and import them in that way.

[obsidian]

Can you show an editor view of the same area with the patches and surrounding brushes selected?

[Despair]

@Silicone_Milk, yea, that's something i hadn't thought of. q3map2 can convert brushwork/patches to ase models right? I'll have to do it that way if so, as i have no modeling experience/knowledge.

@Obsidian, here's a shot of that area in editor. Your post made me take a closer look at the brushwork there and i did manage to clean it up a bit, but the problem persists in a test compile. Any ideas?
[lvlshot]http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5568/editorshot.jpg[/lvlshot]