j3st3r's New Layout

[j3st3r]

Going for a small tourney for 1v1, maybe 3 play ffa. Need some input on the layout before I do the usual and concentrate on details and go room by room. Any input appreciated.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15159109/jstrnewlayout.zip

[AEon]

Nothing against a quick map sketch, but the amount of useful feedback you will be able to get is directly proportional to the amount of preparation you put into what you hand out. Makes sense?

Please, in future, spend an additional 5 minutes to put your map into a .pk3 file, with .arena and .aas file (and a levelshot while at it) to let folks actually do more than walk the map, i.e. actually play the map against bots, to get a feeling for distances, heights, and layout in a FFA situation. Also note that defining what bots are supposed to play the map, also changes how the map is perceived. Many folks seem to use Xaero, to up the difficulty, but often many other bots are less frustrating and make better use of the items in the map, i.e. better navigate the map because the "prefer" certain items. Plus it helps you, see how bots navigate the map, early on "in the game" (e.g. do JPs work for them, do they go for all items).

I created the above mentioned pk3 , and was able to test the map a lot better, but most folks out there may not have bspc etc. at hand. Played against 3 bots in FFA (Doom, Visor, TankJr on Hardcore).

Regarding the map:

• First impression is that the flow is good. Allows for several interesting paths on the different levels. The vertical gameplay looks promising.
• I like the RG position, took me a while to notice it, meaning it is slightly off beaten path.
• The 2x25H in water, as sound cue should also work. Since the MH is in the lowest part of the map I was wondering about dropping the floor here, for more water... might be interesting. Putting the MH almost on a small island... maybe.
• Placement of the other items seemed to be OK.
• The scale, at first felt a bit large on the upper level outside corridors with stairs, but with bots, it actually felt just right.
• You might want to add a tad more detail, meaning textures (not really brushwork), to help the player orientate a bit better in the map, for more testing. Should not take up much time, but significantly improve orientation.

No idea if any of this actually helps...

[Tanica46]

start from Map with q3map2toolz is easy.

Create the aas with this bat: "bspc -forcesidesvisible -bsp2aas jstrnewlayout.bsp"

"BSPC run time is 6 seconds"
---------------------------------------
gameplay with bots is good,
but the fps is always up and down.

map with other textures will not easy.

[j3st3r]

Shoulda included all necessary files. sorry for that. Link is updated with new file in pk3 form. Will show up in tournament menu for sp.

[AEon]

Good... I can see that you are going for Tourney... as FFA it worked pretty well and was fun though too.

Strange how q3map2 seems to have problems with these complexly interwoven maps, i.e. the vis is almost unblocked, and you can see most of the map from everywhere. Not a problem presently, but later with detail some good hinting will need to be done to avoid too high tris values.

[Tanica46]

for textures

make a contrast map with a few textures

old time
by planetquake.com a contest with two textures.
that was cool

[j3st3r]

Contrast added and jp markers, download updated.

[AEon]

You latest version stole all my delusions this might be a modern map ...

Some things:

• textures/gothic_trim/metalblackwave01.TGA is missing in the pk3. Probably one of the textures that are part of the mapping dev pack, but not of vanilla q3a.
• The MH JP has a bit of an overbounce, I normally like that, but a bit less would feel more "realistic", less height by ca. 32u.
• Orientation is indeed easier now.

[j3st3r]

Not going for the gothic thing, just what I grabbed first. Was thinking more of an exploded crayola factory look! j/k Jp fixed and water added in that area as you first mentioned. Thank you for taking the time to try it.

[EmeraldTiger]

Layout looks good (it has nice sniping opportunities without being too open), though the RA and MH positioning concerns me. You can literally see the MH from the RA position, and in CPM you can grab them in about 2 seconds flat, then perhaps the YA near the MH if it wasn't grabbed earlier. Seems like one could get stocked up way too fast imo. The RA and MH are also quite close on Aerowalk and Silence, but the former has the RA in an easy-to-attack ledge that's tricky to get to, and the latter has a MH tucked in a dead end which is very punishing if you're caught - here, it seems like one could easily escape the MH room by RJ'ing or whatever if no one's around to stop them. But perhaps a smart player could meet them at the JP at PG or at the tele exits if they try to escape using the teleporters. I believe it's worth mentioning either way, though.

When detailing comes, being able to trick-jump from the RG to the upper platform where the nearby staircase leads would be cool. Something I noticed when looking around.

[Tanica46]

a download from map-charon3geo2.zip does not exist.

would good for inspiration for jstrnewlayout.

[tehSandwich]

a download from map-charon3geo2.zip does not exist.

would good for inspiration for jstrnewlayout.

Somebody reuploaded this map, here's a link for it: http://www.blog.radiator.debacle.us/201 ... ld-by.html

[j3st3r]

My thoughts on ra and mh were that one or the other could be bait if you were sitting at one or the other. Given the size of the map I think you would be able to get either pretty quick no matter the location. I am open to suggestions though. Due to the fact that the higher ground seems to have most of the weapons, I think I need to rethink the item layout anyways.

[j3st3r]

Had some time to mess with the map a little. Changed around the items some what and added to the mh area. Same download as before just overwrite.

[j3st3r]

Think I finally have a layout that seems like fun and competitive. Opinions or ideas welcome before I start fleshing out the details. Thank you for looking. Download same as above.

[AEon]

I know I am doing this all wrong, but I simply am no Tourney fan, so I played it in FFA against 3 bots.

• IMO, the exit point for the TP near, under the RA is too low, or this is some sick strafe-jumping-gimmick that lets you get somewhere. Very annoying. I probably don't have the skill, but alone that would make me skip the map right there.
• Personally I think the map has too many TPs. The default in most tourney maps is one pair. Four portals IMO is too much. Normally, I would imagine, the TPs are a distinct location indicator in tourney, with so many TPs you can always get "out" of where you are, and when trying to track the location of the other player by sound, the many TPs unnecessarily confuse the matter, IMO.
• The RL could be placed more centrally... in the bend of the stairs you have to go out of your way too much, IMO.
• The YA is good here, and I like that the RA is back.
• The JP next to the YA, lets you 125FPS-jump from the YA directly to the top of the JP area. Only the left edge is too narrow, so that in full gameplay I always miss it. Cutting into the wall, to make that ledge at the left top of the JP wider would help.
• Again, this is for dummies, but a slight ledge around the RG area, would make it easier to not miss the distance between RG and the other side (RA direction). Yes, dumbing things down ...
• The GL TP exists at the MH... idea is not bad, since yesterday the MH was pretty much a dead end. I am not so sure that exiting a TP should automatically let you pick up something so easily. Should you not have to "fight" for the items like the RA and MH more in general? And in this case for the MH specifically?

No idea if any of this helps... but a few things above did tend to annoy me... but then again what do I know

[j3st3r]

Thanx for taking a look, again. Ok, on to the fixes. I raised the tp exit near ra up so no jump is required to land on ledge. Swapped the lg with the rl to put it in a more open area. Not sure how you were making the jump by the ya. I tried several times and could not get it. So instead I pulled some blocks out a little on the wall. Added in a ledge to help with the jump for rg to ra area. As for the tp exit leading to mh, I was thinking this would discourage any camping there. I do see what you mean just not sure if I want to change it. Thank you again for taking the time to help me out, I appreciate it.

[AEon]

Thanks for actually taking the suggestions into consideration . The TP to MH, is per se not really a problem, it's unusual, making me wonder if something like that has some repercussions... new version up already?

[AEon]

Some screenshots should help explain what I had in mind and the jumps I mentioned:

• 

a) Just to be sure: With com_maxfps 125 several jumps with edges are barely possible. The two green jumps are indicated. Come to think of it if someone wants to get to the PG more quickly, he would only bother with 2) if the YA is there, otherwise take 1) directly. In red I indicate the cutting out of the wall I was thinking of... not that this really needs to be done.

e) I like the red ledge, makes the jump a lot easier from the RG. Again run forwards and then flying press left or right strafe key to get that bit of extra distance you can make the jump without the ledge. Only in-fight I never do ... for pro strafe-jumpers that get here already accelerated the jump is probably totally easy... I was thinking of adding the purple grate around the RG, much like the one you added above the LG, but your red one works just as well.

f) Coming from the SG, running either towards the RL or the LG I felt that those two paths on the ground floor where empty and too long. Especially the RL room. My suggestion: Drop the TP in the RL room about 32u or more, add maybe some steps (as hinted in purple). To make this area less flat and more interesting. Maybe add water here as well... or mone the water from the SG here.

• Your three TPs now seem to be OK... one gets you a level up, another to the PG and a third to the MH... they all add an interesting continued gameflow. Though I personally would still try to drop one TP... though I have no idea which one, since the are all useful.
• cityy told me in that online the PG is a lot less "useful". You might thus consider swapping the PG with the RL... that way the GL and RL (splash damage weapons) would not be above each other. Again... this is something I would be testing in FFA, and try it there. No idea if this improves anything here.

Hope that helps...

Update: Played FFA against Doom, Anarki, Daemia, and Bones on Hardcore that was really fun. The vertical action in the PG arena on the upper part is great. You jump to the PG, and in flight shoot the RG at the bots on the JP or coming from the RA. Teleports work well... I only need to remember where what TP gets me... the "enter the TP and get the MH most probably" is very convenient.

Be sure to add "FFA" to the arena file, since the map is a blast in FFA as well.

[j3st3r]

Thank you for the great suggestions. Only thing I didn't do was cut back on wall by ya. I did add some damage to the other side to better facilitate jumping there. You will see what I mean. I would like to change the lg area somewhat but not sure what to do with it atm. Download updated with changes.

[AEon]

Some more thoughts on the layout:

• The GL in the MH arena, swapped with the PG seems to work.
• The dropped floor in the RL arena, IMO, looks nicer, makes that area a bit more interesting.
• I like the "damage", this really makes that jump a lot easier.
• The RG "grating", though not mandatory, is also nice.
• Even though I like those rounded stairs, in some cases I do wonder why these would be used, some comments on those:
  • The stairs next to the LG (up to the YA) are useful, when e.g. coming from the MH (via TP) to then gain height again. I normally expect the JP to be located "under" the YA though. But your placement to the right is more interesting. I do catch myself "misusing" the JP to get directly to the YA via air control most of the time. Not really sure about this area, probably fine. Just mentioning this, in case you might have some idea here.
  • Now the stairs in the RL arena, leading up to the PG are more of a problem, IMO. First it looks a bit strange to JP into stairs, strictly visually. The bigger "issue" I see here though is that these stairs will almost never be used, because the TP next to the RL will get up to the top level much quicker. On TP exit you could turn 180° to get to the PG. Again, just mentioning this, I have no better idea, and I am not really sure this is an issue at all, but it occurred to me that I never use the JP here or the stairs.
• This is a bit more experimental. When pathing I like to conserve a continuous path when possible, avoiding dead ends. Not necessarily the "best" or "only" way to do things, and probably makes pathing almost too predictable. Anyway:
  • One area I was looking at was the new GL spot. The wall you exit via TP from is such a dead end when you come from the 3x5H running towards the GL. I was thinking if it had any value to cut a hole into that wall, that then follows the LG stairs curving on a higher level, and ends on the level where the LG JP is. Just an idea, because the path is technically redundant, since you might as well jump down from the GL and take the LG stairs up again.
  • Another outer wall path I was thinking about was when standing in front of the LG JP, behind you in the wall, cut a path leading to the RL stairs to add a mid-level connect giving the RL stairs more meaning as part of an "outer ring" in the map. Again, restricting your options, like you already did, often is better than connecting everything. But this is something I would play around with (if this was my map) just to see if it helps or just adds to many connections.

[j3st3r]

Added in the connection for lg jp to rl area. Also cut a hole in from gl to lg room but didn't wrap around steps. Still not sure here just made a little nook to jump to. I do like the new connection to rl though. Updated dl above as usual. Thanx for all the help here. Bots don't seem to give any good feedback.

[AEon]

Neat... did not think you would try that out. Hopefully my meddling with the map, idea-wise, is not interfering with your vision of the map. Be certain to revert to your ideas the second you see no value in the changes.

• The break in the wall above the MH looks a bit strange (no wonder since it was a quick cut), but I like how the path there is continued. Personally I'd like to exit around the JP, thus lengthening the path, continuing an outer ring, making it less cut off (you have to jump down), but this helps already.
• The LG JP to RA stairs now feels much smoother and natural, it is actually "fun" to run up the stairs now. Completely dropping the RL JP, at first looked like a mistake, but since the RL TP gets you "out of there", dropping the RL JP was a good thing. The passage between YA JP and the RL stairs still needs something to make that passage relevant...
  • My first thought was to put the LG there, but then again not.
  • Another thought was to put the YA there. That might work, making that path quite relevant. Though I like the present YA placement now as well. Might be worth thinking about though.
  • The least disrupting thing to do is move the over-itemized RL area, the 3x5A + 2x5H into that passage instead, and to keep the RL nice and cleanly in the current location.
  • Finally, a new 50H in that passage might also be a possibility.
• A general comment: I like all the upper level stairs and pathing a lot: RA to RG to the GL to the corner with the 5Hs... here the flow breaks, because you have to jump down. The path RA to the PG the upper TP and YA and the damaged wall, down to the RG, and back to the GL all this is fun to run through and works well. The fights with the bots here are very interesting.
• IMO, the problem is still the lower level... something needs to be done to make the player *like* running around down there as well... maybe try to get some light into there (windows?)... something to make the lower area less claustrophobic. I am a bit of a water-phobe, so the water does not really help the RL area in that respect. What do we have down there: The MH (important), the RL, you will go for that, the SG (OK), the LG even and two TPs (leading up, and exiting near the GL)... hmm... should make the lower area relevant.
• Interesting how there is almost nothing relevant on the top-most level (25H IIRC, and ammo?), but this area still seems to be the central connecting hub up here.

[j3st3r]

Layout updated once again, eventually I might get it right. Extended the cutout around to the jp and moved a few things around.I also added in another rl though not sure if map can support it. Download updated.

[AEon]

Quick notes:

• Interesting path from the 2nd RL to the LG JP, the around the corner path is clever... makes me a bit dizzy through to take the corner that sharply. The LG placement is better now. The 25H in the former LG place is "tricky" to get so will make the player think if it is worth getting... a good thing.
• The GL grating around the top floor... in one corner you can fall through the grating, missing some clipping apparently.
• The curved ceiling above the LG might need to be moved up a bit more, to not bump your head when you jump down from the GL to the LG.
• This is a divergence from your other path widths, but it could work to make the curved path of the LG about 25% less wide, to give that path a slightly more special outer ring "precariousness", i.e. you need to better pay attention when running along it.
• 2nd RL... need to test that some more... but could work.
• Noting that the mean reason to jump into the lower area of the map is to replenish health. Not bad in concept.
• I'd swap the 50H in the LG stairs to the RL stairs path with the YA though. The 50H does certainly have "pull", but personally I'd use that path a *lot* more to get the extra armour. And two of the 5H around the LG could also move around the YA there, to give the player in that passage more to "collect".
• GL on top level of the map is a good choice IMO.
• 1st RL area with TP, still not sure what can be done here to make the area more attractive... catching myself looking for a JP... an alternative would be to make this whole area smaller... i.e. move the PG, RL, TP and stairs towards the YA by about 30%... this would make the arena smaller and less "empty". The path RA to PG would then go around a corner, which could be a good thing to have less of a direct line of sight from the PG to the RA.

Need to play the map some more to see how the present layout works.

Update:

• One small note about clipping and bots. I watched Anarki run up the RL stairs (not the MH RL), the bot was taking the inside of the stair steps and getting snagged. I never used such rounded stairs, so I am not sure how to properly clip those when you go into detailing later.

Update 2:

• The new LG arena has turned out really well, it is fun to play there and the bots take to it well also.
• The 50H in the LG JP to RA stairs corridor also works really well. The bots and I go for that health there.
• I actually saw Anarki jump from the YA, using the wall step to get to the GL... nifty. I still wish the left side of the YA JP (where you added the step) was at least 8u wider though.