j3st3r's New Layout

[j3st3r]

Little update to the layout. I got rid of 1 more tele and added in a jp by the rl.

[AEon]

Some notes:

• Strange how relatively simple things can still be special because they are used so rarely: Here the 45° angled RL JP... I like it... especially since it replaces a TP... and it also lets you get out of the RL pit again in a clear way (TPs are always guesswork).
• The more narrow LG ledge/path gives the room an interesting look IMO, so that should have improved things.
• Again something I have been seeing a few versions but never commented on. The stairs in the RL arena (not the MH RL) are quite long (meaning many steps), begin straight then curve into the wall. I was thinking that it might benefit the LG arena, probably opposite the LG JP in the corridor leading to the RL arena, to use the first 5-6 steps to lift the corridor up by just that amount. The plus sides: The LG JP area stairs coming up, LG on same level, JP same level, and the corridor would not all be on the very same height. But the bigger advantage would be fixing the strange situation in the RL arena where the first few steps exiting the corridor are indeed steps... now there would be a flat area to jump into the JP pit, and not jump from steps. (Hope that was sorta clear). The bots also snag slightly when trying to jump from steps down to the RL.
• I know, it was my idea, but if the latter idea, lift the corridor earlier leading to the RL arena is done, that would make the RL pit deeper... so lifting the floor by about 64u... also lifting the JP would make that area less gloomy (and deep).
• Another wild idea... the RA corner looks a bit empty as well. Maybe a narrow path along the wall corner, width of the LG one approximately, with steps on both sides of the corner, with the RA then slightly above the ground, in that corner could help that area. (Just a thought.) If unclear I can post a screenshot.

Thinking about the various arenas:

• The MH arena was the first one to work really well... jumps from the GL level to the RL while shooting in the RA direction corridor or on those coming up on the JP is fun. I hope you will be able to find a nice design choice for the MH corner... personally I find it ugly... but this is just a "sketch"... so...
• With the outer ring the LG arena also has some interesting vertical fighting... you can come from the RL (MH one), from the MH, or from the RL corridor, the YA, the GL.
• The RL arena also has several entrances, and jumps from the TP to the stairs, or from the PG to them or down to the RL should also be interesting.
• The SG area was complex to begin with... from GL, from RG, from JP, above TP etc...

So all the vertical fighting in the various arenas should be interesting now, I think .

[j3st3r]

I think I have the ra area figured out. Problem is I'm not sure about mh now, never ends. I also added in a little something by ya to help in the jump to gl. Give it a peak and let me know. Thank you for your time and help!

[AEon]

• Interesting reinterpretation of the RA area... better than my suggestion. The RA now on a med-level is a good idea, I think, since that motivates the player to step down from then upper level ring. Strange that the bots now roam this area so frequently.
• The cutting into the RA wall, thus removing the need of a JP is a good thing. I noted that Anarki and Bones cannot make it past the RA via that crack in the wall, Doom and Daemia have no problem though.
• Might be a good thing to add some "bot help" via bot clip steps (only bot clip), to make it easier for the bots to navigate:
  • The crack next to the RA.
  • The cube step next to the YA.
  • The PG to GL crack in the top level floor's side.
  Nothing huge, but just large enough to let the bots take the paths as well. For players things would stay as the are.
• The lifted up RL arena floor now feels a lot more friendly.
• The lifted corridor (LG to PG) also seems to work well.
• The YA cube step, now lets the player, quickly jump on the cube to then reach the top of the JP in a second quick jump. With a 125-FPS-Jump that used to be possibly in one jump. Your solution is probably "friendlier" though.
• The 2nd RL placed in the corner near the MH JP is now further away from the LG, that is probably a good thing too.
• I am not so sure placing ammo boxes right in front of TPs (i.e. the upper TP exiting at the MH) is such a good thing... one should make players run for the ammo more, IMO. And there is a lot a space around on the PG level of the map to place them elsewhere here. This might also be confusing the bots. I have yet to see a bot use the upper TP to get at the MH, they always grab the MH coming from the SG or LG areas.
• No idea if this is a possible intent... but potentially many corners could still be rounded off, e.g. when from LG into the corridor leading to the PG, or the corner where the 2nd RL is and several other places... not sure if this would be overdoing things though.
• You might try to add some grating right above the MH letting the player look down from the upper path (where the 2nd RL is) to check if the MH is presently there or not. Letting some light in from the top, might then also make the MH area more "friendly".

And I thought I had nothing more to suggest... oops :-P

[j3st3r]

Changed up the mh area. Trying to give the player more room to move there. I do have clips by all places mentioned. It seems that it depends on which bot you use as to whether they actually can or will go the optional paths. There is now a bot_roam on the tp to the mh and bots do use it frequently. I did try to move some of the ammo around somewhat also. The next area I think might need something is the 50 hallway. Not sure if anything can be done other than the detailing. Maybe switch the 50 with the ya?

[AEon]

Notes:

• I like the new MH area... it gives the player room, plus defends the MH area somewhat. The TP exit lets you move in a fluid way out of there over to the LG stairs.
• A skylight (a grate under the RL above) letting in some light, IMO, would still benefit the MH... it needs some sun . Personally I'd love if the corner behind the RL up here would crumble and let if a *lot* of light.
• The 45° new JP in the MH arena again looks nice, and spiffs up that area, much like the one for the PG arena did.
• Personally I am very very careful with bot_roam because that usually messes up the overall roaming. But if it works then that is fine.
• I'd still move the two ammo crates away from the front of the upper TP leading to the MH, visually they keep implying "you are going to stumble over them", they are like a small barrier, making the TP less inviting.
• The YA... yeah... you could give it a try to swap it with the 50H in the corridor. And replace the 50H with a 25H where the YA presently is. To keep the health mostly in the lower part of the map. Around the YA in the corridor, you could move the 2xShards. And keep the LG plain without shards.
• To add a little something on the 50H-PG stairs you could add 3x5H here.
• Thinking about it some more... I think I prefer a small JP at the RA instead of the crack in the wall. Move the RA a bit more away from the JP, should you do that.
• The ammo boxes next to the RA... deco-wise placing them along the wall (top of the to be JP), probably in the corner, where the RA used to be in the early versions, might be better. Presently the ammo looks cramped in the small RA pit, IMO.
• Overall the placement of items will need several final passes anyway when you have added all the detail...
• I am thinking about the placement of the RA TP... if another place could not be better. But the quick path up from the SG is useful and makes sense here. The question is though, what happens if one were to drop the TP here altogether. You would have to either go the RA path via wall damage/JP, and several stairs to get up to the GL, or take the RA path via MH arena again via many stairs, or use the PG JP and wall damage jump, or via LG stairs and JP, or Rocketjump. Those paths would all take quite a long time (except the RJ). Dropping the TP would on the other hand make all those paths much more relevant, since the TP is the quick lazy path that would almost always be preferred.
  
  It occurred to me that top level (GL) camping would make it difficult to get up there from the lower level without the TP. But then again all the good stuff RA, MH, YA (probably if that is moved), and most of the health is on the lower level so whoever camps up there will have to come down at some point. Up to you.

Every time I think that was all to comment on... but I think the map is pretty much there and ready for detailing. Thinking back the map had a good layout to start with, but the changes, MH path, the 45° JPs, the outer wall paths from MH arena, via LG to the PG arena improved the flow of the map. So it should have been worth the effort.

[j3st3r]

I moved the tele by ra away somewhat. Not sure if I'm digging the new location though. Maybe I should just drop it all together. I do like the idea of it creating an anti-camping element. The jp by ra is not a bad idea but I think I am going to stick with the broken wall atm. I like the looks of it. Moved some other stuff around and put in the grate above mh. I meant to do that last time but left it out. Thank you again for the help Aeon. Download updated.

[AEon]

I think that pretty much should sum up what can be done to the map (note the ominous wording ):

• Only thing that might still be done is lift the ceiling above the LG, to not bump into it when you jump from the GL towards the LG.
• I still hope you will add some outside views to the map, especially around the upper RL. This would allow for more light in the map, and let you look at pretty scenery (or skybox).
• Generally I am still seeing quite a few connecting corridors that are empty to one degree or another. But placing items for deco should quite certainly not be the way to go. So more testing in the future will probably make clear were something could be placed or needed. Not meant to result in changes:
  • The MH arena's highest level 90° rounded platform letting you look down, feels a bit empty.
  • Corridor from upper RL to the ammo in the RA corner, is also empty.
  • Corridor RA ammo corner to the PG and GL stairs are also empty.

Works:

• I like the Quake'ish grating above the MH.
• The ammo and 5H, 5A etc. you moved all now look fine. Obviously once the detail is in one might rethink some things... but for now its OK.
• The RA damaged wall, indeed is also fine.

Off off and away to detailing...

I am really excited to see what you plan to do detailing-wise.

[j3st3r]

I was running around in the map this morning and had an idea to remove 1 of the long los areas. Not sure if this helps or hurts but does change the flow of the map. I had to move some of the items around to work with the new change. Download updated.

[AEon]

Interesting...

• The connection RA TP the upper corridor feels smooth. And gets you up there since the damaged wall stepping stone is gone. From a gameflow point of view it is a bit of a back and forth from the lower level, you go for the RA, need to backtrack to the TP to get to the upper level and continue e.g. to the RG.
• The RA TP fits into that niche, but I am wondering if it might be placed more to the left where the double 25H are. No idea though.
• I think your wall breakthrough from the RA TP to the LG JP adds a very interesting stairs path that is fun and fluid to navigate. Makes the LG JP now a quite central navigation hub, replacing the boring direct path RA to LG.
• The corridor LG JP to the (lower) RL stairs with the 4x5H now almost seems to be redundant, item-wise. To give the corridor meaning, something significant should be placed here. I have to admit I liked the 5H on the stairs and YA here. But your change with YA is also valid (see next point). Maybe put the SG into that corridor and some "important ammo", and move the 5H back on the (lower) RL stairs.
• Thought: What if that corridor was completely dropped, along with the stairs in the (lower) RL area. One would lose an outside path from the LG to the RL, but would still have the central lower path, or via LG JP and YA, i.e. to get to the PG. Maybe you give this a moments though. Personally I like the corridors fluidity, but it has to have a significant function.
  • Though expanded. If the corridor is closed and the you only go down a few (e.g. 8) steps maybe from the PG, then straight, one could still jump from the JP/PG side to the other wall as well. Now here the idea, rotate the TP up here 90° (CCW), and put it on the wall that you run into when running down the PG stairs. This would put the the TP and thus the MH at the end of a "dead end", and not quite as unmotivated right next to the YA. Might work. This is similar in concept to what you used to have in the MH arena, where one used to exit to walk into the PG. Be interesting to see what you think.
• At first I was wondering what the YA grate was doing above the floor, then I looked at the central connecting corridor under it. To better make the grate fit on the upper floor, you should add two steps on the PG side. Presently the grate's edge is sticking out of the floor too much.
• The wider upper flanks of the LG JP I like, had suggested them very early. Lets you directly jump from the YA grate onto the left flank without too much difficultly. So that is very fluid. Good.
• Lift up the ceiling above the LG, to not bump your head when jumping down from the GL? Or 45° angle cut into the ceiling to not bump into the present edge of the ceiling.

Some changes lead to more suggestions apparently.

[j3st3r]

Lol, I seen the suggestions coming. I do like the idea of moving the mg tp to the end of the stairs and removing the hall. WIll give that a go and see how it works. I decided on the backtrack from ra to tp to kind of set up a trap of sorts. If you are going for the ra you might just have to pay for it. I do need to work on the grate for ya, was just put in as a quick sketch of sorts to see how it would work. I do have plans on an angle cut into the ceiling above lg, just haven't gotten there yet. Maybe if I would stop messing with the layout so much!

[AEon]

I love how the map changes, and yields new ways to play it... though I could imagine you are pretty much ready to start working on the details by now.

As with all changes, often one really needs to test them out, i.e. the MH connected TP might be a good thing, or not. I liked the corridor, but paths serve a purpose, especially in Tourney.

[j3st3r]

Download updated with new changes.

[AEon]

Looking at that shortly... presently finished SolarAE... whee...

[AEon]

To be honest I am not sure if this is better than the previous corridor or not. The TP location is fine though.

What I noted with this design was this:

• 

When on the PG side and you want to make the direct jump (green) to the TP you will miss, well I miss, a proficient strafe jumper will probably make it. So I would suggest adding a GL/RG-like grating marked in pink. That would also make the area PG to ammo a bit more generous navigation-wise.

The first idea I had was to round off, in yellow, the whole edge with the grate. Though I still like the rounding off idea, it would not necessarily need to be with grating.

Up to you if you like the TP here. I will need to do some more bot playing though to test this. Maybe that will clear things up.

[AEon]

*Bump*... waves... how is the map coming along?

[j3st3r]

sent you a pm...

[AEon]

I chatted with Jester on a possible path for his map concerning textures, and he let me try out a bit. With the detail design he was going for I was thinking of Romanic marble with sandstone... I collected a few cgtextures.com textures and tried to use only those. Obviously that fails to a certain degree since I would need some "proper" trim textures. Anyway here my attempt...

• 
  This first one almost looks OK...
  
  
  
  

A few things turned out OK, some of the marble and sandstone is sorta there. But it would take very much more work to make it look usable. Lighting is relatively crappy, since my test map did not have proper lighting, had to add some "200" strength lights and a skybox to get some light in.

And again I am finding out how really difficult texturing of a map I did not build is...

Jester you might like to post your texturing version... could be quite instructive for interested mappers.

[j3st3r]

First off let me say I am digging where you are going with your take on the textures. Here is what I came up with after messing around a bit.

[AEon]

I might then play around with the textures some more, might need to edit the geometry a bit though... e.g. you seem to have done that for the half-columns along the wall to get 5 textures placed, where presently my version only is 3-part.

Then again, your version looks a *lot* better, and much like a finished map... e.g. I like the texture you used for the back of the JP.

[j3st3r]

Columns are the same just the texture used. I hope you do continue the texture work you are doing, looks more original than what I have.

[AEon]

I was thinking the textures used in the Egyptian set (that was by Sock IIRC) could also help... will see what I have on HDD and try those.

[j3st3r]

Wish Sock would release his palace set. I think that would work great.

[AEon]

Yeah... I was actually probably thinking of some of those textures when going for the marble idea.

[AEon]

With a newer version of the map, the lighting now is more what Jester is actually using. Re-textured the map completely. This time using Sock's Egyptian Texture Set. I avoided using any textures that hinted at anything Egyptian, i.e. motives, mainly using sandstone and wood.

The map, IMO, is still too dark, and would require more work to brighten it up. I fixed a few small light sources (i.e. copy/pasted them along the walls) to add more of what Jester will be doing in the next versions presumably. Also cut up the columns along the wall letting me use more textures.

• 
  
  
  

I like this version a lot better than my cgtextures version, Sock's textures are just a lot better. As mentioned needs more light, and a nice skybox... sandstone mountain sides, very eroded would look nice, and a clear blue sky.