ctfnew -early layout

[fKd]

CTF-NEW (temp name)

[lvlshot]http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/876/shot0016k.jpg[/lvlshot]

hay all, been playing around with a new ctf layout. feedback would be most helpful. its a smallish map, went for very vertical bases and a nice central fighting area. not sure about the railgun, but ill see what others think first. thanks for ya time hf

***NEW EDITED link 17.8 http://www.gamefront.com/files/22136832/ctfnew.zip

[AEon]

Could you please add these textures:

Code: Select all

trying levelshots/ctfnew.TGA...
trying textures/base_wall/concrete1.TGA...
trying textures/sockindustrial_mach/conc1b_mach2.TGA...
trying textures/q3ctfp22/glass.TGA...

Trying to objectively say something about a map missing textures is difficult. The glass shader included has the wrong path.

[fKd]

fixed

[cityy]

I think the layout is quite neat but has a few flaws:

- There are 3 ways to exit the flag area and all of them are jumppads; up the jumppads there is an LG which will result in a defender sitting on top of them raping anyone who trys to use the jumppads
- the vertical difference between the bottom and the top level in the bases I just too big, IMO - basically it makes any physical interaction between the two impossible as Railgun would be the only viable weapon to use

My Suggestions:
- firstly, decrease the vertical distance between the low and the high base level
- add a underwater route from below the flag to mid
- add 2 new low routes from the low base level to mid but pay attention to not making the high routes worthless or incredibly slow in comparison

[AEon]

Some comments:

• First reaction for someone playing the map will probably be... "where the heck is the flag" ... you expect the flag to be somewhere where the 3 base JPs push you... on the top level.
• I am a sucker for "abstract" design so I already like the hinted at geometry in the map, reminds me of Halo, the height scale in particular, that is a good thing design-wise... gameflow-wise "unusual" (potentially problematic).
• Clever asymmetrical mirror pathing... that is OK.
• Central arena with RG and RA should work as well.
• Now about the vertical bases...
  • Getting out of a base, from the flag, via three JPs is quick, but someone standing on the level of the three JP exits could probably totally spam them with rockets or grenades... not sure you can actually get out of the base that easily after all.
  • To get down to the flag, you basically fall out of the sky for the base/flag defenders down there... this makes it almost impossible to properly defend IMO. And makes things very stressful, because an enemy will not come at the base at a predictable rate, the enemy will simply drop on you. The player will probably stand in the flag "room", and defend from there.
  • The flag room could use maybe make use of its height more, e.g. add a platform on the level of the windows and a JP to get there, to put something the defenders can use up on the platform.
  • The huge cylinder columns, take up a lot of space, making the room very claustrophobic... could be intentional, just mentioning. I was thinking of keeping the 5H and 5A ring, but only making it about 64u high. Maybe even just some not to thick ring, so you can see players on there, from below. This would significantly narrow the cylinders... and add more space.
  • The base floor two side JPs need a AP texture .
• If you are a preferant (new word ) of horizontal gameplay you will have no issues with all the top of the map. But I have the distinct feeling there should also be a "lower" path to the map, that connects them on the level of the bases... this path would obviously need to be less quick to make the upper path valid as well, but I think something like a lower path might work. E.g. a water tube path... maybe drain the water, just a tube path, I'm not much a fan of swimming . A large spiral staircase open in the middle might be pretty cool. And that many steps would take a while to navigate.

Geometry-wise and item placement seems to be OK... but would take much more testing to optimize (the items that is).

[fKd]

layout update. http://www.gamefront.com/files/22124766/ctfnew.zip

the bases are starting to work. reworked a lot of what was going on there. ive also added more to the mid section... in fact, i think ive worked over most of the map. the items for center and low bases need to be changed.. not sure what im gonna do there... gl hf

thanks

oh, and some pics:

[lvlshot]http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2175/shot0010wk.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4120/shot0009d.jpg[/lvlshot]

AEon: lvlshot tags are your friends

[AEon]

Some comments:

• No spiral stairs... booo ... trouble with those would probably be they are too dead slow when trying to get out of the base, alas.
• Again the player will be asking: "Now where the heck has the flag gone now?". Placing the flag on a platform inside the flag room only to be reached via JP is an interesting choice. View up there is great, through the nice windows. But, IMO, makes it even more likely that defenders with camp inside their base, and let no out out, since the the room only has one entry/exit. I think that defeats the purpose of all the other paths if the flag can only be accessed from one point. Or so I would imagine.
• The backdoor JP (behind the flag wall), lowest level with flat water, is a good compromise to get out of the base without obviously running into defenders. Makes me wonder through if you really need 3 JPs on the other side of the base. You could probably drop the central of the 3 JPs... the two outside ones should be enough.
• Using the backdoor base JP (flat water area), catapults you up to the main level of the map. You end up in another room with four windows. There is a huge block of dark geometry right in the center of the room. This is to block direct view from the 3 JP exits, I imagine. The block is too deep (direction axis from the one JP and the central of the 3 JPs)... IMO, this makes the navigation coming out of the one JP unnecessarily crowded. I'd make the block 30% less deep. Alternative: Put a glass "barrier" in the middle of the room, so that defenders can see flag grabbers when hanging around the 3 JP exits, but cannot directly shoot at them.
• The upper level PG path with flat water now is the fastest way to enter/exit the base. Too me 5 strafe/jump-hops, the path on the right up some stairs is 7. The water does not slow down this path, should that be intended. A real CTF player should take a look at the timing of these all these paths, though.
• Above the PG path there is another one, that is slightly higher up, ending at the left upper JP area... this is the "long" path. Felt a bit long-winding. I am guessing the balancing of these paths is risk vs. speed vs. goodies to pick up.
• Dropping one huge cylinder in the base, helps add some room. I would still make the 5H/5A ring, a grated thin ring, the narrow the lower end of the cylinder and give the base more space.
• The lower base level, side JPs, should be APs, texture-wise.
• The flag room exit, has a JP on the right, that catapults you up on a med-level platform. Hmm... that is probably intended as vertical challenge? I.e. you exit the base with flag, use the JP, grab the 25H there, jump down and exit via backdoor JP? Not really sure of the use here. Maybe for the defenders, to pick up health. On the left of the flagroom doorway a second such JP could be added, out of symmetry.
• The huge pool at the bottom of the base... good for letting attackers jump down without taking damage. The MH on the far side (of the flag) in the pool... hmm... not sure... defenders would need to get to it more quickly. Attackers would want to grab it before assaulting the flag, but an attacker will have a hard time getting *out* of the water and to the flag, IMO. As an attacker I would stay on the dry and directly go for the flag. Maybe add a passage from the pool to the backdoor JP area, that would make the pool a potential escape path. Presently I see the pool more as a trap that should be avoided.
• Overall I am no fan of smaller then normal JPs/APs... they always look comical / unprofessional. From the present layout I see why you had to make them small though... so you will need to move some of the geometry to make room .

Strange... I thought I had nothing to comment... so much for that.

Update:

• The left and right JPs (of the 3) in the lower base: The brushes the JP textures are on could be tilted a bit.
• Not sure this is being considered, but this early in the game it would be good to do so: What about bots? Most, if not all, the "high JPs" are problematic (I think the backdoor one works without air control). Have not tested this yet, but something to look out for.

[cityy]

Some comments:

• Placing the flag on a platform inside the flag room only to be reached via JP is an interesting choice. View up there is great, through the nice windows. But, IMO, makes it even more likely that defenders with camp inside their base, and let no out out, since the the room only has one entry/exit. I think that defeats the purpose of all the other paths if the flag can only be accessed from one point. Or so I would imagine.

I agree!

[Ferrao10]

It's a very different approach.
Before I start pointing out what's different (or wrong according to old and proven rules), I'd like to ask if you are at all aware that you broke those "laws" ?
Just sayin' 'cause this layout doesn't seem to follow any old (succesful) stylesheets.
And, really, I don't like it, sorry .

[AEon]

You will need to back up those words... about "rules" and "old" and "proven"... but from the CTF maps I am guessing... keep the "damn map flat"

[fKd]

over hauled the whole base, removed the lg and rg. switched the long jp's to tp's... no more main pipes, they were annoying me. starting to get better gameplay wise....

gonna chip away at it till the end of the day. will post progress build at bed time lol.

heres a shot shows some of the changes so far

[lvlshot]http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3479/shot0011m.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/7773/shot0012qb.jpg[/lvlshot]

[voodoochopstiks]

Looking really really cool that! Supervertical! Hopefully rail won't be too powerful in an environment like that.

[fKd]

ive removed the rail gun and switched it for a personal teleporter

so right now the load out is gl, pg, rl, sg.

[fKd]

updated build. this is getting there. http://www.gamefront.com/files/22131939/ctfnew.zip

[AEon]

cityy's vehement posting suggestions are showing effect it seems

[AEon]

I wish Ferrao10 would comment ... I really am interested in reading about things that work concerning CTF in regard to layout, item placement etc.

Problematic:

• The fundamental issue with the map is the vertical scale. cityy mentioned this. The distance between flag on the lower level and anything on the med and main upper level is so far apart that there simply will be no vertical "connection".
• Even though I like the design, this is pretty fundamental as I understand it in CTF.
• The randomly dropping on the other base impedes gameplay.

I will comment on what might be possible to "fix" when ignoring the main issues above:

• The connected med-level platforms in the bases help. Took me a while to understand you can now jump through the tall windows to directly grab the flag. Good: New paths. Bad: Randomness, chaotic, too fast attacks.
• Back flag JP, another path to the flag. Good: New path. Bad: You can still stand near the flag, near the light on the wall, and camp there as defender, then just wait for anyone to get into the flag room, and then RL the attacker. No stress about defending outside paths, these become actually totally irrelevant, just camp in the flag room.
• From what I remember in CTF, this is the reason the flag is normally *not* in an enclosed area, it is in an relatively open area, reachable from several directions, that can still be defended to a certain degree. Looking at the base I was thinking of putting the flag where the double-light-arrow on the floor outside is...
• As attacker I would take two paths presently. Attack via med-level platforms, and then via backdoor JP, water and back flag JP. I would not bother with any part of the front of the base. All the stairs, water etc. Not good...
• Defenders need a JP or TP to get to the med-level platforms, to quickly stock up on items or defend.
• Long stairs: I'll be the first to say they usually look cool, but as gameplay element they are a catastrophe. fKd you may need to take careful note of this. Those players on the stairs are relatively trapped, sure they can jump down, but they normally take the stairs to stay on them. Long stairs will make it easy to pick off players.

Hmm... don't think I am really helping here. IMO, it would be better to use the design and create an interesting FFA map. There extreme verticality is more forgivable. Though even in FFA, the gameflow would be problematic in the base areas, IMO.

[fKd]

i will not accept the arguments against a tight flag base, or big vertical spaces. ive still got to get the lower back of the base done and i think here is where these issues will be resolved. i agree its a tough assignment. but damn it, im gonna get this right!!

*opens gtk, waves arms around like a robot.

i should make it clear that nothing is immune to deletion. heh

[fKd]

HAHA, i think ive almost got it now. way more fun anyway. moved the flag, reworked the low and added some more paths. item layout is now a total wreck, but the flow is getting there.. will post build at zzz time.

[fKd]

new file (same as at top) http://www.gamefront.com/files/22136832/ctfnew.zip

[lvlshot]http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/876/shot0016k.jpg[/lvlshot]

right, some major changes are in the works, what do ya think?

cheers for ya time fellas

[Pat Howard]

great work, pete. i am glad you decided to keep strong with your ideas and break the rules, whatever those are. flag rooms seem a little tough to defend, but not impossible. get rid of the personal teleporter. it has no place in CTF imo.

[Ferrao10]

You will need to back up those words... about "rules" and "old" and "proven"... but from the CTF maps I am guessing... keep the "damn map flat"

I knew I'd stir up some folks .
No, actually I'm not at all against verticality. It's a cool aspect of a map.
I was rather talking about the flagstand in regards to the number of entrances to the flagroom itself and, honestly, I like the maps best, when in the middle everything meets on one floor or at least in a constant line of sight.
That last version I was commenting on had the flag on the platform inside the glasshouse, which had only one entrance. And then there was only one JP to reach the flag, a slow one. A 180° JP. That was just too much for my taste, too hard for the offense. Q3ctf2 more or less has that 180° JP but the flagroom has 6 entrances on two levels. That makes for the balance on that map which still is one of my favourites.

Now, with the flag on the bridge, that's a totally different thing. That could be really cool. It's pretty tough to defend though, as Pat noted. So, you really might want to consider boiling the action in the middle down to one ore two levels with a good overview and have it less chaotic as is, less stairs and vaster. There's not really a perimeter in that map, so the defense has to have the chance to slug the runner in the middle. Also, don't include routes that bypass the central middle-atrium, for the same reason, imo.

Didn't mean to sound like a smartass with my first post . Got the wrong words.

[Ferrao10]

*bump*

Any news about this one fkd?

[fKd]

been side tracked for the last week or 2, so no news yet.

[fKd]

messing around with the bases still

[lvlshot]http://imageshack.us/a/img209/1976/shot0054.jpg[/lvlshot]