Liposuction - Spronyq3dm1_alpha3

[Infernis]

Thank you for the encouragement dONKEY! It's a process we have to go through and it's up to the mapper to filter what's useful and what's not. So far, I've received very useful feedback and if the majority says it's too big (story of my life) I have to do something about it.

Based on feedback by Aeon and City, I've decided to rebuild about 50% of the map. I've already come up a with a new RA area based on Aeon his suggestions. Currently working out a new floorplan. I'm going to use the MH/YA area, the shotgun stair, the upper level to the lowest RL area and the bridge as a base (no comments regarding those sections so it's probably good). Everything will be more compact and I won't forget the bridge suggestions.

[fKd]

"You build geometry and structure and details and nothing bloody fits anymore."

that would mean youre doing it wrong, you have to build the detail to fit the layout.. not the other way round.

good arts good and all but this is a game, if the game play sucks then who will care? it's a lesson that we all have to remember sometimes... its a fine balance

[KittenIgnition]

"You build geometry and structure and details and nothing bloody fits anymore."

that would mean youre doing it wrong, you have to build the detail to fit the layout.. not the other way round.

good arts good and all but this is a game, if the game play sucks then who will care? it's a lesson that we all have to remember sometimes... its a fine balance

Nobody really cares about new maps these days tbh. There are enough maps to play already, a few new maps won't be played much at all.

[dONKEY]

some stuff

Lol, ok ok.
Beer and the internet when you are a bit pissed at something quite unrelated don't mix!
My badly put point was to judge an alpha on scale depends to a very large extent on what you intend to build in that area. A 256 unit wide and 512 unit high corridor may seem too big. But to detail the interior without restricting player movement means for alpha layout you would need to start with the scale that size.
I dunno perhaps you guys have a different system. My alphs build normally becomes (at least) the basis of my structural hull, that way I do not have to build a second map over the top of my detail map. That's really what I was getting at. If I were to build tight enough so the alpha scale was correct I wouldn't be able to work that way.
Am guessing you guys do not use structural hulls in the same way or make the hull after the detail map. One map for me is normally three maps. Structural caulk hull, detail map and clip map.

[Bliccer]

some stuff

Structural caulk hull, detail map and clip map.

Dito. Otherwise you are going to extend everything again and again just to fit in there. Especially for terrain I guess big basic rooms are necessary.

[AEon]

That is the reason I don't believe in alphas... I build the map with the design already in place (not the last detail maybe) but the important things. Since these inspire more changes that usually make the map more interesting.

Extending is not that problematic, if you do not do it all the time. Having to solve a problem i.e. due to lack of space, spurs creativity... if you are a good mapper, you will find a solution that is non-trivial... and those are also much more interesting.

[Infernis]

Updated the first post with a new screenshot and download link to alpha3.

No changelist because I basically rebuild everything. It's more compact, less flat, less cramped and even the bots play better on it now. I hope this one is finally a step in right direction. Changed the name because it suits the map better. It's only about a third of it's original size. I incorporated all the feedback I've gotten. Oh, Aeon, you can now jump the armor shards from mid level

I hope you all like this one better. It took me a while to understand what Kitten meant with it being cramped. Now I think I understand. To tackle this, I've completely rebuild all the paths and especially the RL area has been changed significantly.

[KittenIgnition]

Yeeeeeaaaahh!!

You knew exactly what I was talking about, and fixed it accordingly. Good job.

Outside of real gameplay, there are still a few issues with the map though. The jumppads feel really out of place; they feel like they're just thrown in corners and really awkward. They're either boxed in on 3 sides, or left completely out in the open, and both of them feel awkward. It could just be the textures, though. I suggest curving the walls outward a bit wherever there's a jumppad, as that would make them feel a lot less cramped, and it would prevent you from hitting the corner when you go off of one.

Alternatively, you could keep it like this and just texture and detail it properly. It's hard to tell the way some things look as-is.

[AEon]

Improvements:

• I like the overall smaller more condensed size of the map. This feels about right now.
• The YA "pit" you created with some steps is nice.
• Interesting container texture, reminds me of Sin.
• The PG area now looks a lot better and more interesting IMO.
• Accessible shards help remove the frustration factor for those less skilled in strafe-jumping (like myself). Trouble is bots will never be able to get to them.

• 

In the GL/RL arena I'd close off some of the area under the TP, here in pink. The area does not really seem necessary to me.

I very much wanted to jump from the GL onto the platform on the other side, but failed, adding some grate-like thing on both sides could make that jump possible. You could then also save one JP (on the ammo side) not the one up to the GL.


Suggestions:

• The MH room still feels a bit unfinished. You might want to add some grating above the MH to let the folks entering the room from the "above path" not from the PG side, look down to see, "ah jumping down is worth it to pick up the MH".
• A "window" on the container side to the RA and possibly one grate from above at the PG would also help "tell" folks, "yes, the RA is there".
• In the RL area (the non-GL one), the main stairs to the RL could be made wider again. The overall depth of the room (axis central area to the RL) on the lowest level here still seems to be too wide... i.e. empty.
• In the same RL area... I am not such a fan of these "floaty" platforms... you are trying to do something with the pathing up there (i.e. a path to the Quad), but I am not sure it really is that completely necessary... just something to think about a bit.
• As was mentioned your JP placement looks a bit random... they don't really fit into the "map sketch"... seem very much put there for good measure. You will want to think about some geometry making their location more logical. I understand why the JPs are there, to help vertical pathing... they just need more "reason", IMO.

I have not played against bots yet... I still have the feeling some of the pathing could be improved, but that would require a lot more testing to determine.

[KittenIgnition]

Do you have MSN or some other contact outside of these forums? It would be great to talk to you about this. I have so many ideas! 8D

[Infernis]

@Kitten: I've send you a PM. I'll also take care of the Jumppads.

@Aeon: I'm glad to hear that. I already calculated that bots wouldn't go for the shards.
Same goes for the large health on top of the containers. So I don't see that as a problem.

Great suggestions regarding the grates. I'll add that. I actually had a window to show the RA. But then I added the containers and dropped that idea. I'll add it again.

Regarding the RL area: You mean making the lowest stairs fill the entire floor width? Because I changed that due to earlier comments about the stairs being too wide. The floor issue could easily be resolved by adding a two step hole in the floor or something similiar. I'm open to suggestions regarding the "floaty" platforms. But I've already put an enormous amount of thought in that area and I'm actually kinda proud of it

I'm very interested in your additional comments regarding pathing.

Thank you both for your feedback!

To anyone else, I'm also very interested in item feedback. I'm aiming at one more alpha and then moving to the beta stage.

Thanks in advance.

[Infernis]

I'm giving this another bump. If there isn't any more feedback I'll continue towards the 4th and hopefully final alpha with the feedback I've gotten so far.

Thanks

[KittenIgnition]

Status pls.

[Infernis]

Well Kitten, I've left you my e-mailadres as you requested, but I haven't heard from you regarding this. I was told you still had a lot of ideas. The last bump did not generate new feedback so I decided not to do a 4th alpha. Instead I'll take Aeon his feedback with me in the first beta.

I haven't started with the beta yet because after months of puzzling with the layout I kind of got sick of it. So I put it on hold. I will continue with it later. I've been messing around with another map (beta). Thank you for your interest.

[KittenIgnition]

Yeah I forgot to email, and now I have no idea what I wanted to say.

[Infernis]

The first thing any mapper, at least when trying to build a MP map, learns is that the real world almost never makes for interesting or good (layout-wise) multiplayer locations. Thus, if at all, MP maps are always augmenting reality and taking certain creative liberties.

Now if this is a study in real-world architecture, than that is fine. But you should not expect much playability.

Not wanting to be a downer here... but that's just the way it is with MP maps.

You know what? I get it now. I've spent so much time trying to fit a map in to a realworld layout that I never really stood a chance in the first place. AEon just called it immediately and even though, with a lot of excellent feedback, we managed to drastically improve it, it's still sorely lacking that MP feel.

In time, I'll go back to the drawing board with a different approach. I'm going to find the interesting parts of the building and corporate that into a workable layout. Something that plays well and looks like the place but doesn't resemble the actualy layout of that place.

[AEon]

Glad my comment seems to have been of some value .

[cityy]

Nice to see you are picking it up again!

[Infernis]

Glad my comment seems to have been of some value .

To me, your comments always have value!

@Cityy: I didn't forget it. I was just so sick of trying to fit something that really didn't fit :S

[AEon]

Was asked to upload the images again, since my site is down.

[Infernis]

Thank you!