Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

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feedback
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by feedback »

[xeno]Julios wrote:Image

considering this is what I looked like at age 25

and the fact that I'm closing on 36 years of age

and the fact that I need 4000 calories to maintain bodyweight of 160-165 (with a lot of that mass in my lower body - I have narrow arm and wrist bones but my thighs and knees are much thicker proportioned, and I have relatively short torso)

I don't think it'd be that easy to gain another 10-15lb of muscle.

Maybe I'm wrong though - what would you suggest if I were to do it?
Are you tracking your calories? Fuck I wish I could cut on 3500 calories, I'm always hungry. Once you stretch your stomach out a bit it's easy to put away 2k calories in a sitting. Pasta, chicken, cheese, bags of doritos... hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng

As long as you aren't like 5'4" yeah I think you should be able to hit 180 and look sexyfine. Hit your macros (1.1g protein/lb LBM, .4g fat/ lb LBM minimum every day) and stick to a well-rounded program with progression and you'll put on more muscle in no time.

I spun my wheels for 8-10 years doing fuck-all until I started seriously eating and training heavy and the results I got in 1-2 years were literally more than twice the gains I saw in my first 8 years. You can do anything with any body type if you really want it.
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[xeno]Julios
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by [xeno]Julios »

here's what my diet was that brought me from 155 to 165:

Image

I just don't see myself getting to 180lb without getting chunky. I've gone up to 179 before and didn't like the way I looked or how i performed in sports.

I've also been experimenting with different programming approaches - so far the only one that seems to work is lifting super heavy 3-5 reps to failure once a week per exercise. I got up to db pressing 90 pounds for 3 reps, weighted dips @ 105lb for 3 reps, one armed db rows 120 lb for 7 reps (could have probably gone up to 135lb without much difficulty).

I dunno - i hear a lot about madcow, 531, texas method, but everytime I try mixing in light days with medium days with heavy days, my strength seems to plummet. Maybe i'm doing something wrong.

Here's my plan for now:

mon:

squats (3 sets of 5 reps).
weighed dips (2 sets of 2-3 reps to failure)
weighted chins (2 sets of 2-3 reps to failure)

thurs:

squats: (3 sets of 5 reps)
db presses (2-3 sets of 4-5 reps to failure)
pendlay rows (3 sets of 5 reps)

Sat:

deadlifts (1x5)
maybe bodyweight chins and dips?


Deadlifts and squats i'm still newbie enough that linear progression is working well now.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by feedback »

That's a lot of fat in your diet- but as long as it isn't making you too full then I guess it's ok.

The reason you have all that lower body strength is that you're doing lower body every day (which is fine) but not balancing it out with the upper body work. The back and lats tend to respond to volume much better than strength, so 5 sets of pullups would be better than weighted ones (or chins, just because chins are easier. You could switch them up.) As far as training to failure, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPH-irhsum8

One possibility for you losing strength when you only peak once a week if that you haven't reached the end of your noob strength gains and thus you're still better off doing 3 full body workouts a week (actually you said it yourself that deadlifts and squats you are still a newbie to). Once you can back-squat 1RM 275 or so, deadlift 325+, and bench 225 for 4-5 reps, then you are no longer a beginner (regardless of how long you've been training) and you would benefit from doing 4 day splits such as 5/3/1 or something. Until then, 3 day full-body workouts are better because your protein synthesis will stop between 24-48 hours after training without chemical enhancement. In other words, your muscles are ready to be trained again and grow more. If you find that it's too much fatigue, it's likely that your body is just not used to the work yet and you just need to get enough food and sleep for a couple of weeks. When I first switched to 4-a-weeks (5/3/1 BBB challenge) I was dying and thought I was overtraining. I kept eating, dialed back the intensity a little bit for a couple of weeks and now I can't imagine working out less than 4 days a week.

I'm curious why you chose to do dips but not bench press, and db presses but barbell press? Those (along with pull-ups and pendlay rows) are the upper-body mass/strength builders. You are also using an overall very low-rep programme. It's generally recognized that training in all rep-ranges a good way to produce both muscle size and strength. Ex. 3x5 work for the main movement followed by assistance exercises for that group done at 5x10 or something. Do you really feel that you've worked hard enough on a day like Saturday where you do 1x5 and then two assistance exercises?

As far as not gaining too much fat on your way to 180- that's simply a matter of diet. If you can't put on that much muscle each week/month, then don't eat that many excess calories. If you eat enough to gain 4 lbs a month, but your body can only gain 1 lb of muscle/month at your current level then 3 lbs of that will be fat. If you lower your caloric excess a bit (what is called a "clean bulk") then your weight gain will be less fat and more muscle.

This is a good routine for beginners (again, see my definition of beginner): http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthrea ... 063&page=1
Based on 5x5 but with added assistance exercises to supplement upper body growth.
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[xeno]Julios
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by [xeno]Julios »

interesting, thanks for the info. I actually only started adding in a third day very recently (like 2 weeks ago). For the last 10 years I've been lifting only twice a week. And for 90% of my training history the only leg work I've done has been deadlifts once a week or two. Did squats for a year or so when I started back in 2002, and only just reintroduced them a couple months back. My lower body's always been naturally thicker boned.

As for dips but not bench - it's just something I started with and got pretty good at. Only started adding in the db presses a couple years into my training (inclines), and only started doing flat presses about 4-5 years ago. I'm almost done reading the bench press chapter in starting strength (3rd ed) so will probably introduce them soon.

I looked at the routine you linked to - bit too much assistance stuff in there for my taste. Strength is my main priority (tennis is my thing, not bodybuilding). I've taken the season off tennis so I can focus on strength training and rehab.

Interesting info on failure. I definitely find that my total volume suffers and it's probably due to failure training. I rest up to 20 min between sets of dips and I still find the second set a complete bitch. That said, I did put on significant upper body mass training to failure with dips and chins.

You recommend bw chins vs weighted chins for volume. What about just using a lighter weight - I can do 15-20 chins at bodyweight - would I gain any strength by doing volume training at bodyweight?

Another thing that confuses me - if chins/pullups are considered an assistance exercise (for the pendlay rows), then should I be progressively overloading the chins? Or just sticking to bw?
andyman
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by andyman »

you workout 3 days a week, with what... 30 total reps for the day, and expect results?

dude i want to slap you
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by LawL »

lol
Thick, solid and tight in all the right places.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by feedback »

[xeno]Julios wrote:interesting, thanks for the info. I actually only started adding in a third day very recently (like 2 weeks ago). For the last 10 years I've been lifting only twice a week. And for 90% of my training history the only leg work I've done has been deadlifts once a week or two. Did squats for a year or so when I started back in 2002, and only just reintroduced them a couple months back. My lower body's always been naturally thicker boned.

As for dips but not bench - it's just something I started with and got pretty good at. Only started adding in the db presses a couple years into my training (inclines), and only started doing flat presses about 4-5 years ago. I'm almost done reading the bench press chapter in starting strength (3rd ed) so will probably introduce them soon.

I looked at the routine you linked to - bit too much assistance stuff in there for my taste. Strength is my main priority (tennis is my thing, not bodybuilding). I've taken the season off tennis so I can focus on strength training and rehab.

Interesting info on failure. I definitely find that my total volume suffers and it's probably due to failure training. I rest up to 20 min between sets of dips and I still find the second set a complete bitch. That said, I did put on significant upper body mass training to failure with dips and chins.

You recommend bw chins vs weighted chins for volume. What about just using a lighter weight - I can do 15-20 chins at bodyweight - would I gain any strength by doing volume training at bodyweight?

Another thing that confuses me - if chins/pullups are considered an assistance exercise (for the pendlay rows), then should I be progressively overloading the chins? Or just sticking to bw?
You can do weight, it's just no point in going to failure. Waiting 20 minutes between sets is ridiculous- there is no benefit to pushing yourself to such exhaustion that you have to wait that long. You are just causing CNS fatigue. Again, chins are pretty easy- so make your form perfect, do them slower to increase time under tension, and do pull-ups every other time instead.

Also, you may have put on upper body muscle by doing dips and chins to failure- but you'd have gotten better[/b] gains by using compound upper lifts and not going to failure.
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plained
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by plained »

Some excellent professional advice from feedback

As usual ey
it is about time!
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by [xeno]Julios »

yea, I never thought that what I was doing was necessarily optimal, but it was very convenient and had reliable and satisfactory results.

I've often been told by different people (including massage therapists and girlfriends and men who are lucky enough to have reason to fondle me) that I feel unusually dense and solid. I wonder whether failure training is partially responsible for this. Perhaps it's something as trivial as CNS overload resulting in a higher than normal resting muscle tone (background EMG muscle tone or whatever). If that's the case, that would actually be detrimental to my tennis, since being relaxed and fluid is key for generating power.

I'm gonna experiment with a 5x5 approach for my upper body work. Will report back with results.

thanks for the feedback feedback.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by LawL »

Would you just stfu, eat and lift for fuck sake.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by [xeno]Julios »

just did my first "volume day"

felt really fucking easy compared to what I'm used to. Guess I can get used to this :)

might throw in a week or two of the heavier lower volume training every few weeks or so before a week layoff.

also loved the pendlay rows - felt nice and healthy - did 5 working sets of 5 reps at 155 pounds and reckon I can build up nicely over the weeks.

oh and was nice not to have to rest 10 min between sets.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by andyman »

what was your tonnage on your first volume day, and how many total reps to reach that tonnage
[xeno]Julios
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by [xeno]Julios »

3x5 (3 sets of 5 reps) squats @ 190 lb
5x7 db presses @ 50lb
5x5 pendlay rows @ 155lb

So I'm guessing that's a total tonnage of 2850 + 1750 + 3875 = 8475 lb over 75 reps (only heard of this term just now so not sure if I'm calculating right).
andyman
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by andyman »

Just my opinion, but it seems like you are not even coming close to challenging yourself with a tonnage that low.

You calc'd it correctly

what is your posted max back squat?
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by feedback »

hmm let me see what I did today:

3100 lbs front squats (4x5 @ 155)
15,750 lbs leg press (5x10 @ 315)
7250 lbs leg curls (5x10 @ 135)

26,100 lbs

... yeah that was only over 3 exercises and it wasn't that bad (ok the leg curls and press were awful).



edit: this is kinda fun, let me calculate my upper 1 workout:
1x5 45
1x5 115
1x3 135
1x5 185
1x5 215
1x5 235
4380 bench

press 5x10 @ 100
5000

4 x 8 @ 145 bb rows
4640 rows

=14,020 (not including random other shit for assistance)
Last edited by feedback on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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[xeno]Julios
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by [xeno]Julios »

andyman wrote:Just my opinion, but it seems like you are not even coming close to challenging yourself with a tonnage that low.

You calc'd it correctly

what is your posted max back squat?
well i'm new to squats, so I'm just adding 5 lb each workout. That's the max I've lifted.

As for db presses, I went real low just to start - gonna add 5lb next workout and so on. But isn't the point to lift light so that you can get volume in? If I go too heavy, I can only do 3-4 reps before failure.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by LawL »

Pyramid the weight dumbo so you're mixing up the amount of reps through the sets for each exercise.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by [xeno]Julios »

oh, those weights i listed are only the working sets. For each of those exercises I did several warmup sets at progressively higher weights. I never include the warmup info in my records.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by andyman »

Monday's workout, and the start of what looks to be 6 days straight of hell week:

Back Squat
5r @ 190lbs
5r @ 220
4x4r @ 250

Hang Snatch
4r @ 120lbs
4r @ 140
2x3r @ 160

Hang clean + jerk
4 HgCl + 1 J @ 145
4 HgCl + 1 J @ 170
3 HgCl + 1 J @ 190
2x4 HgCl + 1 J @ 180

Push Press
4r @ 130
4r @ 150
1r @ 160
4r @ 130
3x4r @ 150

Snatch Pulls
5x5r @ 175



it's like that all the way through saturday, but different movements. going to get my ass kicked.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by Plan B »

Christ, I'd crush all you homos IRL :olo:
andyman
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by andyman »

right after you ask how :olo:
Plan B
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by Plan B »

Right after I dispose your body, soldier boy :olo:
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by Captain »

Army vet vs Plan Brittle, that's a tough choice.
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by andyman »

surely you mean 'dispose of' :olo:
Plan B
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Re: Well hell may be freezing over (workout)

Post by Plan B »

Sure, if you want to get fucked correctly.
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