crazy dude chops off a guy's head in London ..

[Eraser]

Nowhere in this topic: "Muslim", "Islam", or "terrorist".

Except for the fact that while he was carrying out his attack, he was reportedly yelling, "Allahu Akbar!" And he's a Londoner citing grievances against "his people." The attack was explicitly religiously motivated. I'm not sure "terrorism" is a legitimate word in the way that most people want it to be, but there most certainly are muslims that have the courage of their convictions and carry out the things their religious texts and imams command of them.

Terrorism doesn't necessarily have to be motivated by religion.
The dictionary definition is:

"the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes."

Terrorism is about intimidation and spreading fear. Whether or not that's religiously motivated is irrelevant.

[feedback]

Pretty sure it was obvious as fuck it was a terrorist attack and I was being sarcastic, not sure though.

[Plan B]

Islam has a strong political component.
Also the guy in the video talked about how the troops ("our troops" as he put it) must be returned from the Middle East.
So yeah, there's your political motivation.

This attack was a terrorist one. How much or how little that adds remains to be seen, but I find it strange how people are desperately trying to deny it.

[Don Carlos]

I'm actually getting more and more pissed off the more I think about this - don't just carry on as normal; ask for change. Ask for a change in the laws of this country to make it easier to deport these absolute lunatics that allowed to preach messages of hatred and death in this country. A change to the red tape nightmare that stops immigrants being sent back to where they came from "because their lives are in danger". There lives are probably in danger because they were cunts in their own country too.

Fuck sake - the silent majority will not win by remaining silent

[Eraser]

A change to the red tape nightmare that stops immigrants being sent back to where they came from "because their lives are in danger". There lives are probably in danger because they were cunts in their own country too.

Wow, how arrogant. Or is it ignorance?

[Don Carlos]

A change to the red tape nightmare that stops immigrants being sent back to where they came from "because their lives are in danger". There lives are probably in danger because they were cunts in their own country too.

Wow, how arrogant. Or is it ignorance?

Not really; it was meant in the context of the preachers of hate that I mentioned previously. People who are willing to contribute to society are more than welcome in the UK. Fuck, I'd swap some of the useless messes that were born in this country for a hardworking person who is willing to put a shift in from anywhere else in the world. Just don't claim political asylum then start preaching about killing the army and police etc in the country that has taken you in. People like that should just be fucked off back to where they came from.

And there is the problem; people who try and stand up for the country they live in get labeled as racists or fascists. The EDL are both of those and I haven't got the time of day for them. We are an open country who believes in tolerance and free speech, but the laws are wrong when a 15 year old lad can be arrested for calling someone gay on twitter but a Muslim clerk who asks for people to kill others in the name of his god can carry on as arresting him would be deemed as racist.

[Eraser]

Yeah you have a point there. Problem is that it's probably very hard to prove that an imam is spreading hateful ideas among the people that visit his mosque. Harder than simply going to Twitter and copy/pasting this 15-year-old's Tweets into your juridical dossier.

[Don Carlos]

http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

People like this...there are people like this in every religion. They do not represent the 99% of people who follow any religion

[Eraser]

Yeah seems like an open and shut case with people like that doesn't it? But then again, most, if not all of those people have a British passport and have just as much right to live in the UK as you do (not unlikely that a significant portion are actually born in the UK) and they are just as free to express their opinion, as vile as it may be.

Look at it like this: what's worse? Men dressed in dresses shouting that the police should burn in hell or British teens attacking and fighting with police, throwing rocks or worse at them, damaging public property and putting cars on fire just because their favorite football team lost a game?

The difficulty with the issue is that it's very hard to draw a line between freedom of speech and truly being a danger to society. It's probably true that more than 90% of the people in that demonstration won't ever go and actually physically hurt another person. Should they be extradited for having a non-compatible opinion? For having a lack of respect?

I'm not agreeing with these people at all, but I think it's a very complicated issue that cannot be solved by simply saying "off with them, back to their deserts and caves".

[Don Carlos]

No very true. There are plenty of domestic grot bags that I'd like to dump in the sea to make way for useful members of society, but you can't do that and it's up to the other people of the country and the politicians to help them.

People need strong leaders and role models again, not over paid football stars and the like.

I'll post more in the later part of the day to make sure my point is clear and I'm not coming across as being a cunt about it

[Eraser]

Nah, you're not coming across as a cunt. I think the majority of the people share your sentiment. It's just bloody hard to do something about it unfortunately.

[losCHUNK]

This guy too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrueU4xd2w

Anjem Choudary. He had a church that he used to preach death to the west from before getting shut down, it took years for him only to change the name of his organisation then carry on, still runs demonstrations and talks from a street corner with his followers. There's a documentary done by the BBC called 'My Brother the Islamist', follows the story of a white brit guy growing up with his brother that gets converted to be a radical and attends his church, he was arrested before the olympics for terror plots and those 2 who hacked the guy up in Woolwich attended the same church and the same rallies. If you watch My Brother the Islamist you'll see he has a big following.

Here is refusing to condemn the attack the other day -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22650053

My Brother the Islamist docu that I thought was pretty decent -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LorhdNH1C34

They also have groups go around streets hassling people telling them they should be following sharia law, I'm sure I remember poking fun at that.

Now I have never met a radical Muslim, I know plenty 'normal' and some might have views very different to mine and they're quite free to express their opinions, London appears very different but this isn't even about freedom of speech imo. The 1st thing that's shouted out at the beginning of donnies vid is *fuck the police*, that is a public order offence that I've been had with. Anjem Choudary continues to incite violence and racial hatred under the guise of 'free speech', if we can't revoke citizenship or deport these fuckers then they should be facing a dose of justice.

Its bollocks and makes a mockery of free speech and why it's a flawed concept cos it gives any idiot with a soapbox a voice to reach idiots without one.

Where's Abu Hamza now ?

[scared?]

Maybe the west should lead the fucking rest of the world alone and this shit wouldn't happen?...

[Don Carlos]

Agreed - but then people would hate us for not helping other people in need

[Plan B]

Maybe the west should lead the fucking rest of the world alone and this shit wouldn't happen?...

Did you mean "leave" instead of "lead"?
Your contribution was almost profound...damned auto-correct

[scared?]

Yeah dipshit I meant leave. I guess autocorrect fixed my typo like that...u gonna be okay about it?...

[DRuM]

Look at it like this: what's worse? Men dressed in dresses shouting that the police should burn in hell or British teens attacking and fighting with police, throwing rocks or worse at them, damaging public property and putting cars on fire just because their favorite football team lost a game?

Whilst these extremist's beliefs certainly don't reflect the muslim majority, the difference is that pro islamic hate demonstrations instigated by cunts like Choudray encourage easily led, weak minded, uneducated muslim followers up and down the country to barbarically murder people, such as we've seen, not just burning cars and throwing punches. There's free speech here, and likewise in the US protected by the first amendment, but then there's speech so inflammatory that imo it really should be banned, particularly since the UK has experienced terrorist acts so obviously inspired by it.

Also, Choudary saying to that girl "if you're non muslim you're destined for hellfire" is just as misguided and ignorant as those westboro baptist church shitstains. He should be kicked out of the country along with abu hamza.

Anyone see newsnight last night? Choudary doesn't condemn the attack. What a surprise.

[scared?]

All Christians...real ones...believe any non Christians will burn in hell...

[losCHUNK]

That's like saying all real Muslims are radicals if you dissect the beliefs, but this is not what we're on about.

[scared?]

No...ur not a real Christian if u pick and choose the parts to follow or not...

Moderate Christians aren't real Christians and they are worse than the fundies cuz they enable the morons...

[losCHUNK]

Way to miss a point

As a muslim you have a choice between all life being sacred or all infidels burning, but that's not what we're on about.

[seremtan]

We are an open country who believes in tolerance and free speech, but the laws are wrong when a 15 year old lad can be arrested for calling someone gay on twitter but a Muslim clerk who asks for people to kill others in the name of his god can carry on as arresting him would be deemed as racist.

i'd be interested to know specifically which Muslim "clerk" it was who incited violence but somehow got away with it

i'd also be interested to know why you think that an attachment to tolerance and free speech is widespread in this country. my impression is that, by and large, people are 'tolerant' only of the views they tolerate. in a genuinely free country, if you called Trevor McDonald (for example) "a big gay nigger faggot" on Twitter, people would rightly conclude that you were a massive tool, and probably tell you so. by contrast, in this actual country, you won't only get called a massive tool, but also a posse of the pious and thin-skinned would rat you out to the police, who would immediately 'investigate the matter' before arresting you, charging you with a hate crime, then making sure you get banged up for as long as some rapists

[seremtan]

Also, Choudary saying to that girl "if you're non muslim you're destined for hellfire" is just as misguided and ignorant as those westboro baptist church shitstains. He should be kicked out of the country along with abu hamza.

why? if someone came up to you in the street and said "if you don't believe in fairies, you're destined for the dungeons of Mordor" you'd laugh in their face. when people like this guy talk this kind of delusional bollocks, the only proper response should be derisive laughter, not boo-hoo offence-taking. we've got too many laws against free speech in this country without adding to the pile

[Mogul]

Terrorism is about intimidation and spreading fear. Whether or not that's religiously motivated is irrelevant.

Didn't mean to imply terrorism was strictly religiously motivated. Among Feedback's other words were "Islam" and "Muslim," as if he were glad those words weren't mentioned yet, because in his mind, this event had nothing to do with them. My lack of recognition towards the word "terrorist" isn't related to my comments about islam.

[Mogul]

Whilst these extremist's beliefs certainly don't reflect the muslim majority

Careful there; it's not the majority in a way, but it is definitely not a tiny minority.