Quake Live WIP: ABC_beta

[xiripiti]

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Go to Beta 4





----- ARCHIVED -----

Hi guys
This is the 3rd map for Quake Live I`m working on. The first rough was done several months ago and forgot. Now I`m back on it.
ABC is a small duel/ffa map. At this moment my only worry is to make a map that can offer a good, pleasant fight. For that reason I will forget, for now, textures and nice architectonical details, and put my focus on the real thing: movement fluidity and a balanced relationship between rooms and items. As you can see, only 4 plain colors were applied as textures. If u want, play it and send me some feedback about what u feel about this.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xryhushi1h0s2 ... beta01.pk3

[Theftbot]

corrupt file!

[xiripiti]

corrupt file!

Think not. Go to properties and check read only.

[Theftbot]

Doh its QL

[fKd]

[xiripiti]

"This is the 3rd map for Quake Live I`m working on."
Do I feel some silent unwill about QL ??????

[AEon]

Only speaking for myself. I hate QL testing of maps, because my account there keeps on getting deleted because I don't play. And loading custom maps is a bitch, i.e. I was not able to load a custom map at all. So I am disgruntled, and hate QL. Yes, I am old and bitter.

This does not go against your map, I actually like that screenshot a lot. I'd prefer the map to be for Q3A though. I'd certainly immediately help test it and give feedback. There may be more folks who feel that way, then again what do I know.

[cityy]

You can use WolfcamQL for testing QL maps, AEon.
It's QL's q3mme, based on ioq3. You just need to download it once and copy over all the pk3 files from your QL install. You'll be able to play QL maps with q3 physics and without having to login to an account.

Personally, I think that making maps for QL is a reasonable thing to do nowadays. The potential audience is bigger and custom maps don't get played in Q3 anymore either so it does barely have any favor to it.

[xiripiti]

Only speaking for myself. I hate QL testing of maps, because my account there keeps on getting deleted because I don't play. And loading custom maps is a bitch, i.e. I was not able to load a custom map at all. So I am disgruntled, and hate QL. Yes, I am old and bitter.

This does not go against your map, I actually like that screenshot a lot. I'd prefer the map to be for Q3A though. I'd certainly immediately help test it and give feedback. There may be more folks who feel that way, then again what do I know.

Man...I`m not a kid anymore, sometimes i feel too old to spend time doing maps, knowing they will never be played online. But I`m not bitter at all and I love play QLive like a kid. Citty is right, u should install Wolfcam. ABC_beta02 will be posted in few days and I want you to test it and tell me all mistakes I´m doing

[obsidian]

It goes both ways, making a map only for Q3 will get people complaining about how they don't have a copy of the game and only have QL. In a perfect world, maps would work for both, but seeing as how that isn't the case, it's up to the mapper to provide support for whatever game he's interested in most.

That said, it's not super hard to convert a map between the two games if you have a Q3 license, nor is it super hard to just install both games.

TL;DR: Meh.

[AEon]

Was not aware of WolfcamQL, installed v10.3, started to fix configs to play like I am used to under my test Q3A folder. Took a quick look at the map.

[KittenIgnition]

You can use WolfcamQL for testing QL maps, AEon.
It's QL's q3mme, based on ioq3. You'll be able to play QL maps with q3 physics and without having to login to an account.

That sounds so much like something I would say

[xiripiti]

Was not aware of WolfcamQL, installed v10.3, started to fix configs to play like I am used to under my test Q3A folder. Took a quick look at the map.

I`m glad u installed WolfcamQL and took a look at my map. Any comment? My first concern at this moment is about how items are placed along the map. The next beta release wont have important changes to the layout, so if you have suggestions to modify items places, now is the right time.

[AEon]

Well, played it twice so far, second time against bots. IMO, the main focus should not be the items, but the layout itself and the gameflow.

I have been playing Rise of the Triad (2013) this past week, so was surprised how effective rocket jumping actually can be in Q3A. That said, I have the feeling this map is geared towards competitive rocket jumping as primary means of travel?

I kept having to jump down from ledges, or jump along them, or use 125 FPS jumps to overcome gaps. All things that are extremely bad for bot-play, i.e.these all are dead ends for bots. Is this intentional? I.e. bots have little to no priority?

Strangely the map worked more or less with 4 bots on hardcore. Though they do congregate on the lowest level of the map.

Generally, you might consider giving the lowest part of the map, more height variation, to avoid it being completely flat, e.g. by adding some about player-heigh platforms, with a few steps.

On the upper level, you have a set of stairs around a roundish corner. Your step heights are too heigh by a factor of two IMO, making the player head bob extremely. Doubling the number of steps would help smooth the head bobbing. (Just guessing, your steps seem to have 16u and they should be more like 8u heigh.)

Bugs:

• Not sure if this a WolfCamQL issue, but the skybox is broken and showing a white grid on a black texture.
• The JP has no sound either, when you use it.

I would have to play the map a lot more to understand your present connectivity to be able to maybe suggest connections that could help. A quick check let me notice the following:

• On the lowest flow I would tend to run to the PG, and then that would have me run into the wall, a dead end, unless I RJ, or turn around towards the JP. Getting a weapon at a "dead end" is not too good an idea. It might be interesting to check if you can continue the path at the PG somehow, maybe.
• The pathing I really did not like was on the lowest flow (from the central area) to either the TP or on the other side of the wall the JP. I always ended up on the JP side of the wall wanting to cut off the bots on the TP side. Especially the path to the JP felt overly long and irrelevant, though it actually is one of the very important connections up. Some height-variation and a shortening of the path to the JP IMO would help.
• Another path up from the lowest area might also be something to think about. I had too much the feeling of being stuck "down there". Again, if RJing is the maps intention, I am simply not properly playing the map.

Just to be clear, I really like the way you abstracted the geometry and the design you use in the map.

Hope that is of some use.

[xiripiti]

Ty for ur comments, Aeon.
Need to read it with more attention. Anyway, very intersting stuff, some good ideas Tomorrow i will reply.

[KittenIgnition]

[lvlshot]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34855518/shot0050.jpg[/lvlshot]
These stairs are much too phat. Make them a bit shorter please!

[lvlshot]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34855518/shot0051.jpg[/lvlshot]
Make this opening a bit wider, so that the little "bridge" on the outer edge (the right side of the image) is smaller. Also make the jumppad launch you straight up.
And while you're at it, make the trigger on the jpad in such a way that you can walk beside it to the back, without having to jump.

Other than those, the map is really nice. I can't wait for it to finish. Of course, I don't care about duel gameplay, and am looking from a purely movement-based view. It looks really fun. I can't think of any other big fixes right now.

[xiripiti]

[lvlshot]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34855518/shot0050.jpg[/lvlshot]
These stairs are much too phat...
Make this opening a bit wider...
make the jumppad launch you straight up.
make the trigger on the jpad in such a way ...
I don't care about duel gameplay...

Good tips
About gameplay, iessssssss I care a lot

[xiripiti]

Hi Aeon
-About bots priority, I did make this map thinking only on human play. Maybe I am wrong. Imo, play vs bots is not the essense of this game. For me, bots are usefull as a way to test the map and not much more. I dont know any map where play vs bots is still funny after 3 games.
-After testing with bots, I verified they move almost only on the lower floor. Even those who spawn on upper levels. After they are downfloor they have no easy way to go up.
-You are right: lower floor needs a major modification. As you say, it needs other ways to connect easy to upper floors, not only with JP or TP. The feeling of geting trapped in this area is real.
-Dont want to make this a RJ map, but give the chance of using it to faster moves, and only if the player wants.
-About stairs...I have allways a probl to make them "fit" in the layout, but is something I will see again.
-Skybox...no problem here, on both Wolfcam and QLive work perfect.
-JP nosound is a personal old problem : never had sound on JP in all maps I`ve done. But have to find a solution, wont be so dificult...I think.
Tanks for playing and comment this map. Beta02 will come soon.

[AEon]

• Bots vs. Player
  I am pretty oldschool, so bots are the only relevant gameplay mechanic to me. Mostly because almost no custom maps will see significant playing by real players. But obviously there is also a case for going for a more "challenging" jump'n'run layout that will demand skilled players to navigate it. For me the more simplistic, but easy playing gameflow is preferred. But I see your point, and as mapper, you should indeed be the one who sets the priorities.
• Bots Optimized
  Some tricks: Bot-only spawn points in areas they will not get to normally can help. And the placement of items they care for. So e.g. 5H groups and less weapons at the bottom of the map, might help. RL, PG on e.g. med level or power-ups could help. Basically one tries to define some plausible item-relevant pathing for the bots. Bots congregate in combat areas, so once they do, everyone else flocks there too.
  
  "After they are downfloor they have no easy way to go up."
  This IMO is a hint at a problem for your normal players as well. So the "stupidity" of bots helps hint at basic issues with gameplay. So you might try to look into solving the issue.
• "The feeling of getting trapped in this area is real."
  Glad you agree... looking forward to what you come up with... will probably not be easy to solve. But if you do that will most certainly make the map very much more interesting. Especially if you come up with a non-trivial solution. Challenges often create the really interesting design choices.
  
  Not going RJ-only I am glad to hear. So if you work on the "normal" flow not only the bots will be better off so will the player, but the "clever" player will have some interesting advantages adding pathing variety.
• "Skybox...no problem here, on both Wolfcam and QLive work perfect."
  You may be testing a non-clean install then, or there is something missing in my install, potentially others will have this problem then as well. Hmmm... can someone else comment on this?

[xiripiti]

In Wolfcam baseq3 u need to have all pk3 from quakelive. The sky shaders are inside those pk3 and wolfcam needs them to render the sky I used. But if u already have them, look at the folder named shader list (or similar). All shaders must be listed there.
Hope this helps

[xiripiti]

Almost forgot...I will use ur tip to"control" bots, using some items in certain places to "atract" them. Good idea. Dunno if in a human game it will be ok, but for now seems the best way to make a playble map.

[AEon]

I am seeing this issue on the console:

Code: Select all

WARNING: R_FindImageFile could not find 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green.tga' in shader 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green'
Shader textures/skies/meth_clouds_green has a stage with no image
WARNING ShaderForShaderNum: using default shader for 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green' (8, 20)
WARNING ShaderForShaderNum: using default shader for 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green' (8, 23)
WARNING ShaderForShaderNum: using default shader for 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green' (8, 21)
WARNING ShaderForShaderNum: using default shader for 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green' (8, 22)
WARNING ShaderForShaderNum: using default shader for 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green' (8, 22)
WARNING ShaderForShaderNum: using default shader for 'textures/skies/meth_clouds_green' (8, 22)
stitched 0 LoD cracks

Your pk3 is in D:\Games\wolfcamql10.3\baseq3\abc_beta01.pk3, were it seems to belong with all the contents of the C:\Users\AEon\AppData\LocalLow\id Software\quakelive\baseq3 folder.

The shaders are normally in scripts/... no shader list file there.

[xiripiti]

The shaders are normally in scripts/... no shader list file there.

I`m not a shader expert...but I`m sure the sky shader is in my pk3

[xiripiti]

abc_beta 02.jpg

After a hard work last weekend, here is the beta 02 version from ABC map.
AEON and KITTENIGNITION made some interesting comments and sugestions about beta 01.
The major problem was on the ground level, there were not enough ways to get out from there, fast and safe. Besides, the layout of that area is a bit opressive.
In this version I added a new set of stairs and a elevator on the gound level, but kept the same layout, hoping that the "opression" feeling disapears with the new wayouts.
Changed the position of some items in order that the bots dont get stucked in a small zone, as before. Think this aspect is a bit better, but far from perfect.
Changed the design of the TP and added another element: a chimney. Also aplied some testing textures. I`m thinking on another name for this map. We will see.https://www.dropbox.com/s/298qsx7ocgwp7 ... beta02.pk3

[cityy]

You don't have to make a new thread for every release. Just update the old one and post a reply. You can update the title too by editing the initial post.