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Topic Starter Topic: Re: "Trespass" Tourney [WIP]
Eraser
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PostPosted: 05-04-2015 01:17 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Lots of hardware speed improvements these days are due to hardware and platform specific upgrades like new features of DirectX or OpenGL, improved shader support and such things. Quake 3 doesn't use any of these specific technologies, so everything needs to be calculated by raw GPU power and I assume there's still a limit that can be hit there with the Q3 engine.
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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-04-2015 04:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Lots of hardware speed improvements these days are due to hardware and platform specific upgrades like new features of DirectX or OpenGL, improved shader support and such things. Quake 3 doesn't use any of these specific technologies, so everything needs to be calculated by raw GPU power and I assume there's still a limit that can be hit there with the Q3 engine.

Not if you use ioquake3 :)

With that said, anything I personally make (maps, skins etc) will be intended for use with ioquake3 and not vanilla quake3
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cityy
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PostPosted: 05-04-2015 06:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


This does sound weird to me, Pat. The screenshot doesn't look like r_speeds should hit 30k (which is nothing negative). Did you check for weird behaviour with r_showtris and did you use hints yet?

I think if you want to have a map playable for the masses you should aim for 25-30k max. If you want a map only for people with good computers the limits should be rather high.



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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-04-2015 07:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


cityy wrote:
I think if you want to have a map playable for the masses you should aim for 25-30k max. If you want a map only for people with good computers the limits should be rather high.

I see your point cityy, but don't you think the "masses" will all have computers that are more than capable of 50k r_speeds and higher by now?
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AndyW
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PostPosted: 05-04-2015 09:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ahem Ahem... :tear: ...maybe me? :olo:
I got a 2nd PC today, its an Intel DualCore 2x3.2 or something w 4 GB RAM for low Money.
I remember in 2006 my Machine was a Pentium3-800 w 128MB RAM.
My first pc was an Highscreen 386DX/33Mhz 1MB RAM & 40 MB HD and i payd alot of Money for that one.
Dont get me wrong, but im not intrested in buying actual Hardware. Its sad that im limited to older Engines due that, but for me its better then kick the Money out of the Window.
I would never spend 2000 to 2500 Euro in a PC System... Only if the Money starts falling from the sky.



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cityy
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PostPosted: 05-04-2015 10:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AndehX wrote:
I see your point cityy, but don't you think the "masses" will all have computers that are more than capable of 50k r_speeds and higher by now?


The majority has good computers but about 20-30% still run a pentium 4. My experience is that the most vocal people are those who have problems and that in quake the public opinion about maps is by a large part formed on forums.
Btw, the officially recommended system specs... NVIDIA GeForce 7 Series or better, ATI Radeon X1800 series or better, 2 GHz Intel Processor or better - happy mapping! :p



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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-04-2015 11:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@cityy: I haven't tested it yet but I'm pretty sure it's almost entirely because of the windows. The wooden frames are made with brushes and the trees have to be drawn through all the glass panels. I'm hoping I can fix this by using 2d frames instead of brushes. I haven't hinted anything yet because each room is in its own .map file to speed up test compiles. Not sure what you mean by weird tris behavior.
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cityy
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PostPosted: 05-05-2015 09:08 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pat Howard wrote:
Not sure what you mean by weird tris behavior.


I was just referring to things being rendered that shouldn't be rendered but since you are testing rooms in separate files this can't be the problem. Hmm.
You should definitely try those 2D window frames. I think Hipshot also went for that on Solitude.



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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-05-2015 01:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


yeah, i will, but first i am gonna finish the map, hint everything, and then see what the r_speeds look like. i did some testing last night and was surprised to find the windows and trees together only make up about 1/3 of the r_speeds in the MH room. the screens may not show it but are really a lot of tris with those broken tiles and other objects strewn about.

a quick shot of the high YA room:



not exactly reinventing the wheel here, just trying to stay consistent with the previous room and finish off these areas quickly.

edit: lightened the shot up a bit.

the main thing i am doing to try to distinguish the three main atriums is to have different roof/window designs in each. the roof here is another triangular truss design, but the sky lights are in the center instead of on the sides. i've also used tall windows here instead of wide ones. the RA room will have a hip-style truss with a combination of tall and wide windows.




Last edited by Pat Howard on 05-05-2015 02:37 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-05-2015 01:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Whats the best method of applying decals like the green moss over the bricks? do you simply place a brush 1 unit above the wall with the decal shader applied to it?
Is there a better way to do it?
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-05-2015 01:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


in this case, the moss is painted onto the brick texture.

as for decals, this thread should help you. the key part of the shader is the polygonOffset line. that basically keeps it from z-fighting with other surfaces, so you can just place you decal overlapping the brush you want it on (with nodraw on the non-visible sides).
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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-05-2015 03:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


ah excellent! I actually already had my shader setup correctly, I just didnt realise there wouldnt be z-fighting when the brushes were on top of each other. Thanks!
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-12-2015 11:25 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


wrapping up this project, felt like posting one more screenshot.



funny story: i struggled for a couple of weeks deciding how to detail the central pillar in this room. i couldn't think of any practical use for something of that shape just sitting in the center of a factory. but one day, i was researching ammonia factories because the concept art that i am using is mainly from one dubtown album of an old abandoned ammonia factory. in a stroke of unbelievable and hilarious design luck, i learned that these old factories had tall, cylindrical, high-pressure reactors for producing ammonia. i knew i had found the perfect concept for this part of my map, and at that point i felt like the theme was really meant to be.

here's a photo of a real ammonia reactor. the real thing is about twice as big as my scaling, but i think it still works.



i've been making all the rooms in separating map files, so here's to hoping i don't run into any more weird technical issues when i put them all together.

p.s. here's the hip-style truss roof with the combination of wide/tall windows i talked about in an earlier post:
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AndyW
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PostPosted: 05-13-2015 12:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


:up: Very nice!
I love posts like this. <3
The funny is, im living next to BASF... they have one standing in front of one of the Main-Buildings. I went by hundrets of times on my bike thinking "Why they put rusty metal scrap in their park?

In 1921 one of the silos exploded. Maybe its a cool spot for the Quad?
Heres some wiki about the really big explosion. :sly:

EDIT: OOPS FORGOT TO PASTE THE LINK, SORRY!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppau_explosion

Scale of the explosion
The explosion was estimated to be about 1–2 kilotonnes TNT equivalent, and was heard as a loud " QUAD-DAMAAGE" in Munich, more than 300 km away. The pressure wave ripped roofs off up to 25 km away and destroyed windows even farther away. In Heidelberg (30 km from Oppau), traffic was stopped by the mass of broken glass on the streets.
:olo: :q3:


EDIT2: I like the idea of placing a Quad on that cylinder! You have an explosive Base for an explosive item... If its possible linked on pickup with an Alarm-Siren! :)
But dont know if that will fit to the layout... Just an crazy Idea. :smirk:



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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-14-2015 04:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The quad makes a global sound anyway when picked up.
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-14-2015 10:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


woah, man, you lived there? what a small world!
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AndyW
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PostPosted: 05-14-2015 11:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Jeah, about 9 years! I was living in Mannheim-Jungbusch, its like 300meters to BASF.
You lived in Ludwigshafen? :D
@AndehX: Jeah i know bout that, but it would be way cooler to add an "Siren" too, like the "Wooop Wooop Wooop" in Deva-Stations GL-trigger room!



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foralarx2k3
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PostPosted: 05-18-2015 10:36 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@Pat

Thanks for sharing this bundle of fun with us. I'm a little late with feedback here as I've only just re-installed Q3. I've run a few games on this against a nightmare visor. The connectivity on this is great and it'll make for some interesting games when it makes final. (Love the route from the shotgun corridor via the post ledge to the what is now the GL ledge - though I didn't actually use it much in game - so what's replaced the gl?). Didn't really think there was a need for the step on box ledges at lg and MH. The maxfps dm13 trick takes care of that. I did find a few times I fell between the box and the wall at the MH one though a couple of times. (Bad timing on my part maybe). The only other thing is I wanted to use the ledge on the post that has the crane hanging from it now to transverse the gap but kept getting snagged and falling down to the pit / jump-pad. Final thing from the screen shots. Is the plasma gun a little too close to the MH there ?

My usual disclaimer (it's been a few years :)) All feedback my own personal opinion.. take what you will from it, dis-guard the rest or all of it, I won't be offended :)

Kind of inspires me to dust of radient.

Ian
AKA FoRa



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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-18-2015 11:42 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


bumping this thread because beta is now up. check the first post for the download link. thanks!
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AndyW
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 12:10 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, :eek:
Impressive & very motivating!!!
Looks like a real place, awesome what you get out of the "oldie but goldie" Q3-Engine!
Will give it a run in LAN later...
Oh man... dont know what to say... Hehehe



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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 12:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


thanks, andy.

you may want to download it again because i just updated the link with some tiny changes i overlooked. stronger lighting and a few bot bug fixes.
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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 05:31 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Unbelievable work Pat. Your attention to detail is second to none.

Heres a few things I wanted to comment on:

Im not convinced that there should only be a 25 health here. I think the RA would be better suited up here since it's a pretty exposed area. Maybe im missing something, you're alot better at mapping than I am :P
Image

Looks like the moss should extend onto this wall here, instead of stopping in a line where the 2 walls meet.
Image

This decal isn't lined up properly :P
Image

You probably already know this, but little areas like this, need to be clipped properly :)
Image

I absolutely love these teleporters. Do I have permission to use them in my maps? :P
Image

Not alot to pick out, but thats obviously a good thing :)

Well worth the wait for this map. I'll definitely keep it in my baseq3 folder!
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AndyW
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 06:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AndehX wrote:
Im not convinced that there should only be a 25 health here.

QUAD-DAAMAAGE! :)



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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 09:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


thanks, guys. i will get to fixing those bugs.

AndehX wrote:
I absolutely love these teleporters. Do I have permission to use them in my maps? :P


hipshot made them. you can find them in his maps crescent and solitude. his assets are free for the community to use so i'm sure he won't mind. i did tweak the shader a bit in my version.

AndehX & AndyW wrote:
Im not convinced that there should only be a 25 health here.


i probably won't change this. i'm not saying you guys are wrong, it could create a fun battles in that room, but here is my reasoning for the low RA if you are interested:

- when you place an armor you should consider it in relation to the other armors in the map, not just what would make the best battles in a given room. if i moved the RA up it would be much easier to run the armors. you would be able to go RA >> MH or RA >> regen/YA much more quickly on the top level which could make domination too easy. with the RA low, the quickest way between the RA and MH is the vulnerable low path. this balances out the less vulnerable but slightly slower high paths.
- jumping off from the last point: in general, armors should be spaced apart not only in XY but also in Z. right now i have YA and RA low, MH mid, YA/regen high. if i moved the RA high my map would be too top heavy.
- without the RA at the bottom of that room, i don't see much incentive for players to drop down to ground level.
- there are more angles approaching the RA when it is low. if it was on that post, you'd only be able to reach it from the two side paths or a rocket jump. this could make gameplay more repetitive.
- as for as the quad, i think it would be overpowered in this small map, especially right next to the RA.
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foralarx2k3
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 01:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


So I thought I'd try out the beta, knowing about the r_speeds and given I have an old off the shelf PC from Tesco that cost the princely sum of £269 about 6 years ago. It's not a gaming rig but it is capable of running the game and runs the standard maps quite smoothly, if I keep the com_maxfps at 83.

The system specs are:- 2.7Ghz AMD Athlon II X2 215 Processor with 4GB Ram on Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit. It has an onboard graphics chip (no separate card) that gives out a whooping Windows Experience Index of 3.8 :)

So how does it run the map. Well to be honest, not smooth enough to make a decent game of the map in lightmap mode... But it's still playable in Vertex light mode with a very reasonable frame rate at that. So there's you answer and now you don't have to worry any more about it Pat :)

My only gripe... lose the box next to the GL ... it's really annoying.



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v1l3
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 02:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


amazing map .. I think you should move that REGEN to where the 25 health is \shrug ...and AndehX ..nice weaponskins, you should put them up for download
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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 03:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


v1l3 wrote:
...and AndehX ..nice weaponskins, you should put them up for download

I might do that... soon
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 05:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


v1l3 wrote:
move that REGEN to where the 25 health is


i guess i just don't see what the solution would be for the other item positions if i did that. i'll think about it but i am having trouble finding a setup where the MH and RA are spaced evenly, all the rooms have something valuable, and there is a powerup on the 25+ reactor.

i could have a 2nd YA where the regen is now and then swap the 25+ for the regen, but then i think people would complain the map is too stacked for FFA.
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v1l3
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PostPosted: 05-19-2015 09:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


well..I guess I view that spot as something which would hold an important item(putting it on display) .. since it is quite attractive itself => yeah..I'm not sure of what to put in the REGEN's current spot if you did that .. but that spot is perfect for a powerup .. would be nice to play it online
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CZghost
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PostPosted: 05-20-2015 09:03 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some quick design tips you might take care on. I used noclip to take first area, but I'm sure it can be seen anyway. The door look like melted into floor in the restricted area, on the other side the floor is lower. Making some stairs?
Image
Image

I seen you included well known jumppad from Rustgrad, just in yellow. There are all textures for shader, but in game there I miss the floating squares. Do you plan to add it later or just forgot? :)
Image

Like there was already said the stain decal on the stairs do not look very well. I think using _decal entity there would be better - compiler will then take it and wrap it around the brushwork - that would look much cleaner...
Image

The gameplay is wonderful! I must say 5 players is soo enough to take action :olo:
Image



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m4xpower
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PostPosted: 05-20-2015 01:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Looking good :). Two thumbs up...

Just a few things I've noticed:
Only took it for a quick spin, but the lager areas are causing fps drops. The LG area and the RA drop + archways to the teleporter feel weirdly like a bloodrun re-imagination :) - inverted/mirrored and switched, but still familiar.
Maybe you could add an "empty" (first!) shader stage to the foliage shaders. It causes the foliage to "disapper" in r_vertexlight 1.

Tele-exit decal would be nice, as I get confused sometimes ;)
The shaders for pads, teleporters, foliage, plants and weapon/armor spawns need a "nopicmip".

An example for the "empty" shader stage:
{
map textures/masked/nothing.tga
blendfunc blend
tcMod scale 0 0
}

Link to the tga:
http://www63.zippyshare.com/v/pxif9Jlo/file.html
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-20-2015 02:45 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


thank for the feedback, guys. i will fix the bugs.

@m4xpower: yes, the double arch to tele was definitely a blood run ripoff :), but i actually wasn't thinking about blood run when i made the LG area. that area just grew out of the other two atriums which were made first.
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 05-20-2015 11:52 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Played a short game on it against bots.
Map looks great and plays great. That's pretty much all there is to say.

I agree with the +25 health on the reactor though. Might be a slightly beefier item. Maybe put the regen there and move the +25 to the current regen spot.
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AndehX
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PostPosted: 05-21-2015 03:58 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I don't know why, but for some reason, I feel like the RL should be where the regen is right now...
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 05-21-2015 11:42 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


alright, alright, i will put the regen up there :). tourney item placement will stay the way it is though because i really like it.

what i'm going to do is regen on the reactor, YA where the regen was, and then two 25 healths where the low YA was so the overall amount of health in the map will be the same as before.

i may also change the RA to a second YA because it just seems like too much in one place to have the regen right on top of the RA now. i've never made an FFA without an RA so that might be interesting.

bots won't be able to get the regen if it's on the reactor, but i can place a bot-only spawn there to give them some chance of nabbing it. i've seen them RJ and jump for it when roaming the map solo, which is pretty cool to watch, but there are too many distractions for them to do it in a real game.

anyway thanks for all the positive feedback on the looks/layout.
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