so.....some Pakistinian dude

[dmmh]

If it were 12 cartoons gloryfying him, this would still have happened.

You honestly think that?

most likely, yes

[Jackal]

If you understand the context, but are unwilling to see the images in question, how can you really know what you're attacking or defending? It's not like viewing accident victims on ogrish or something like that...

I don't really understand your point at all. This whole issue stems from the fact that their prophet was depicted at all. You're saying that for me to have an oppinion I have to take part in what insulted these people in the first place?
I understand why someone would want to see it and still be against it but I choose to respect the beliefs of these people. That doesn't mean I can't make an argument.

[dmmh]

dont get me wrong, I am all against goverment control over media and public in general, I just think people should be more aware of what they do to eachother and show some respect
We all live on this same planet, we are all gonna die, we all breathe the same air etc etc
we are all the same and basically all have the same needs

[Dave]

the US has no freedom of speech

um....

Amendment I


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In practice, speech isn't always free, but in theory it is supposed to be. Freedom is something that if you fail to exercise, you will lose.

[Dave]

If you understand the context, but are unwilling to see the images in question, how can you really know what you're attacking or defending? It's not like viewing accident victims on ogrish or something like that...

I don't really understand your point at all. This whole issue stems from the fact that their prophet was depicted at all. You're saying that for me to have an oppinion I have to take part in what insulted these people in the first place?
I understand why someone would want to see it and still be against it but I choose to respect the beliefs of these people. That doesn't mean I can't make an argument.

It's like reviewing a book you haven't read because you're an expert on the subject

[Jackal]

If you understand the context, but are unwilling to see the images in question, how can you really know what you're attacking or defending? It's not like viewing accident victims on ogrish or something like that...

I don't really understand your point at all. This whole issue stems from the fact that their prophet was depicted at all. You're saying that for me to have an oppinion I have to take part in what insulted these people in the first place?
I understand why someone would want to see it and still be against it but I choose to respect the beliefs of these people. That doesn't mean I can't make an argument.

It's like reviewing a book you haven't read because you're an expert on the subject

It isn't at all. I understand the circumstance surrounding the issue. I've studied islamic cultures and I understand how much a part religion plays in their lives. Like dmmh said, this would still be going on if the cartoons were of Muhammed being glorified. ANY depiction of their prophet is sacriledges. If we're going to agree with your argument then I don't see how we can legitimately debate anything as someone could easily say "Well you weren't there so you don't know."

I think dmmh hit the nail on the head with his last post. When you think in terms of policy and legality people's toes always get stepped on. I believe the best way to live life is through respect and tolerance and common sense.

[dmmh]

the US has no freedom of speech

um....

Amendment I


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In practice, speech isn't always free, but in theory it is supposed to be. Freedom is something that if you fail to exercise, you will lose.

well lets not bring it in that direction, but while law has gives you the freedom, government doesnt. but thats a whole other issue, lets keep it a bit at where we are going no

[bitWISE]

I haven't really been following this story but I do have a related comment. I feel that until there are no longer fanatical followers of religion our race can never be united. People talk about how inanimate objects like guns and bombs are so bad but religion has given motive to much of the killings in the world.

[Jackal]

You start telling someone what they can and cannot believe and you've got a big problem.

[bitWISE]

You start telling someone what they can and cannot believe and you've got a big problem.

I realize the futility of what I said. I don't expect the world to become athiest but I do hope that it would. Instead of worshipping beings that may or may not exist we should be worshipping our family, our friends and our lives.

[Jackal]

You start telling someone what they can and cannot believe and you've got a big problem.

I realize the futility of what I said. I don't expect the world to become athiest but I do hope that it would. Instead of worshipping beings that may or may not exist we should be worshipping our family, our friends and our lives.

Well really that's what most religions instruct a person to do. The problem is that many people can't thing rationally from within their system of beliefs.

[Underpants?]

Because depictions of the prophet are considered higly sacred things in the culture and as such should only be done in sacred places by sacred people.
Sure it's "weird" but it's their belief. Who the fuck is some cartoonist to go out and shit all over that belief? I'm not a religious person but I do understand the concepts of honor and respect. Reliogion means everything to these people, they are completely devoted to it. This is something we can't understand because every "westernized" nation is so goddamn cynical and all-knowing that we just push issues like this to the side and call it "crazy".

No dude, what's crazy is someone thinking that they have the right to riot and kill people over a fucking picture. That's some seriously atavistic shit right there. Islam is stuck in the goddamn stone age, and that's fine as long as they keep it to themselves, but when the fundamentalist crazies start going off like this then they need to be slapped down. Same goes for any religion.

They were keeping to themselves. They didn't ask for this shit to happen. Not to mention the fact that the reaction you're condemning stems from something our culture did.
Islam is not stuck in the stoneage, it's 2006 over there just like it is here. They just have a lot more integrity when it comes to sticking to their religious beliefs.
I know that not a lot of people are going to agree with me because I'm one of the most relativistic people I know but in no way is this their fault. They had a simple rule which would be easy enough for us to respect but these people had to go and do the exact opposite thing.

Once again, I think their reaction is extreme and uncalled for but I do see where the anger is coming from.

You just broke three of my personal rules.
1. speaking about something you have no personal experience in
2. sounding like a pedantic prick
3. being wrong
JIHAD ON YOU DURKA DURKA DURKA NOT MY FAULT YOU BROKE MY RULES, WHICH ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT COUNT BY THE WAY DURKA DURKA
Christ you're the dumbest smart guy I've ever inter-known...

[Nightshade]

I believe the best way to live life is through respect and tolerance and common sense.

Agreed, but most muslim fundamentalists are utterly devoid of these qualities.
You know you can't set foot in Mecca unless you're a muslim?

[Turbine]

I havn't seen the cartoons and really have no desire to. Personally I think that what the cartoonists did was uncalled for and completely unnecessary.
I'm not saying they should be killed, that's also retarded and unnecessary, but this never should've happened in the first place.

It's their job. They use cartoons to show their political and satirist wit, it's what they get paid to do. People need to understand and tolerate everyone's differences and beliefs a little more...

Freedom of speech is not freedom of racism.

[Dave]

I havn't seen the cartoons and really have no desire to. Personally I think that what the cartoonists did was uncalled for and completely unnecessary.
I'm not saying they should be killed, that's also retarded and unnecessary, but this never should've happened in the first place.

It's their job. They use cartoons to show their political and satirist wit, it's what they get paid to do. People need to understand and tolerate everyone's differences and beliefs a little more...

Freedom of speech is not freedom of racism.

Sure it is, as long as you don't violate civil or criminal law

[Underpants?]

racism.... now there's a word the world will never tire of

[Jackal]

I believe the best way to live life is through respect and tolerance and common sense.

Agreed, but most muslim fundamentalists are utterly devoid of these qualities.
You know you can't set foot in Mecca unless you're a muslim?

I have no business being in mecca so it doesn't bother me.
And a fundamentalist anything is devoid of these qualities.

[Turbine]

So a newspaper can publish a picture of a black Jesus sucking a cross in the shape of a white human dick. And that would be perfectly OK?

[Dave]

So a newspaper can publish a picture of a black Jesus sucking a cross in the shape of a white human dick. And that would be perfectly OK?

As long as it doesn't violate any laws, sure, they can do whatever they want. Whether or not they choose to do it is another question.

[Freakaloin]

I believe the best way to live life is through respect and tolerance and common sense.

Agreed, but most muslim fundamentalists are utterly devoid of these qualities.
You know you can't set foot in Mecca unless you're a muslim?

same goes for christian fundies too...no difference really...different religions, same assholes...

[Jackal]

Jesus, Goof just made a point. Time for me to go home.

[Nightshade]

I haven't said anything fundamentalists not being assholes simply because they're not muslim.
That said, is anyone denied admission to the Vatican because they're not catholic? Did people burn down the museums that showed the Mapplethorpe exhibit?

[Jackal]

No and No. But just because something is one way in one place doesn't mean it has to be the same somewhere else. Go diversity.

[Nightshade]

Yet you're saying we should alter OUR beliefs to accomodate muslim fundamentalists.

[Turbine]

He is saying that we should fuck off. Leave them alone.

Go find oil somwhere else.