Quake3World

Nightshade wrote:Yet you're saying we should alter OUR beliefs to accomodate muslim fundamentalists.

I didn't say that at all.

I've written two different replies to this already, and keep muddling the issue with overreaction, free speech, condoned violence, etc.

But to be completely honest I'll say this.

Islam is overreacting about the cartoons - noone can really feel they are justified in burning, killing and rioting, except for themselves.

That being said, the cartoonists themselves -- or maybe more accurately, the guy who commissioned the cartoons -- were overreacting as well.

The issue itself was already at a festering head, and it has been for years and years. The way to approach such a delicate issue, is not to create offensive images and say to Islam "Oh yea? Well OUR culture says we can mock the most sensitive part of YOUR culture all we want to!"

I mean shit, it's like we're sticking our tongue out at them wearing a mask with the First Amendment on it.

As long as the issue is addressed this way - by either side - I don't think any of this is ever going to get any better.

Jackal wrote:

Nightshade wrote:Yet you're saying we should alter OUR beliefs to accomodate muslim fundamentalists.

I didn't say that at all.

That is precisely what you're saying. I should not engage in what I and many others believe to be free speech so we won't offend a specific group of people, thus leading to said people flipping out as is their wont.

I was watching the news the other day and according to them there is nothing in the Quran that specifically prohibits the creation and depiction of Mohammed, however there are sections that deal with praying to objects and idols. Anyways the point is that it’s the current state of Islam that prohibits this and the actual text.

I’ve also seen how disrespectful Muslims can be toward other religions, for example the Taliban destroying the ancient Buddha statues with RPGs. And don’t tell me it was just the Taliban, because I didn’t hear anyone from any Muslim country opposing these actions. There are probably numerous other examples, especially ones dealing with Jews. The culture is extremely intolerant of others, you don’t need me to provide evidence to know this.

I believe it’s important to uphold our views toward Freedom of Speech, even if it means we will piss off other people.

Nightshade wrote:

Jackal wrote:

Nightshade wrote:Yet you're saying we should alter OUR beliefs to accomodate muslim fundamentalists.

I didn't say that at all.

That is precisely what you're saying. I should not engage in what I and many others believe to be free speech so we won't offend a specific group of people, thus leading to said people flipping out as is their wont.

ARGH!!!! I hate when people take an argument like this. Just because you "can" do something, doesn't mean that you "should".
Sure, we're allowed to do and say whatever the fuck we want but common sense and respect dictate that some things shouldn't be said. It's like a 4 year old doing something blatantly wrong and shouting "MOM SAID IT WAS OK!!"

Yeah, and I hate it when we're made to alter what we do to cater to the sensibilities of minority groups that believe in an invisible man that lives in the sky. Especially when said minority group's wackier members like to strap on dynamite vests to purify infidels.

And this is not simply a case of "you shouldn't even though you can". There are PLENTY of violent muslim extremists out there. The cartoons, imo, were legitimate criticism. If the nutjobs can't deal with that, too fucking bad. Were they offensive? Probably, but that in no way warrants the response it got.
Sorry man, but you're never going to convince me that censorship to prevent offense (not cases that involve real harm, there's a difference) is a good thing.

i don't think jackal's arguing we should impose censorship...

I think what he's arguing for is an idealistic vision.

Nightshade wrote: The cartoons, imo, were legitimate criticism.

absofuckinglutely!!

Legally, what the cartoonists drew was acceptable. Morally, very bad very bad wrong and stupid. I mean, seriously?

Embargos, pulling out your ambassadors, burning flags, sure. Taking lives in the name of Muhammad, holy shit you just validated the cartoon. Morons.

Nightshade wrote:

Jackal wrote:I believe the best way to live life is through respect and tolerance and common sense.

Agreed, but most muslim fundamentalists are utterly devoid of these qualities.
You know you can't set foot in Mecca unless you're a muslim?

Did you hear about the little Palestinian boy who threw up in a synagogue? He was executed, now can you see the common sense, respect and tolerance?

Captain Jihad wrote:
Did you hear about the little Palestinian boy who threw up in a synagogue? He was executed, now can you see the common sense, respect and tolerance?

Link?

Captain Jihad wrote:
Did you hear about the little Palestinian boy who threw up in a synagogue? He was executed, now can you see the common sense, respect and tolerance?

did you hear about the beheading of Margaret Hassan, a British-born Iraqi national, the director of Care International's operation in Iraq?

a female aid worker,
yer gg, gutless bunch of cunts

link:
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq ... 35,00.html

or how about the fun practice of stoning women?
http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/

so thats Irans version of common sense, respect and tolerance?

buse ownt the poor lil mazda

anyone got a copy of these cartoons, can't seem to find em

busetibi wrote:

Captain Jihad wrote:
Did you hear about the little Palestinian boy who threw up in a synagogue? He was executed, now can you see the common sense, respect and tolerance?

Link?

well?

busetibi wrote:

Captain Jihad wrote:
Did you hear about the little Palestinian boy who threw up in a synagogue? He was executed, now can you see the common sense, respect and tolerance?

Link?

im still waiting for you to post this link Captain Jihad, of course if you dont post it, i can only pressume that you're a lying pigs penis.

Dave wrote:

Turbine wrote:

Dek wrote: It's their job. They use cartoons to show their political and satirist wit, it's what they get paid to do. People need to understand and tolerate everyone's differences and beliefs a little more...

Freedom of speech is not freedom of racism.

Sure it is, as long as you don't violate civil or criminal law

ive lost all respect for you with this post.
Basically what you are saying is that, law defines what is right and what is wrong and that it is ok to do anything within the boundaries set by a nations national law.

I hope you understand this contradicts your own statement; laws are different per country (and especially in countries where state and church are not so seperated values will be different) and furthermore law is far from perfect and sometimes even stupid; there are numurous examples of laws un-enforacable.

Im not a avid believer and most likely will never become one, but I see the Bible and any other religious book as an giudeline to life.
In it you will find a set of values which are deeply rooted in many people or should be rooted deeply into most people; a set of values and manners which, if all people would live by them, would make this world a better place.

You take the lawbook, say 'hey its ok to do this' and on the other hand you judge the muslims whom do the same?

Ofcourse the recent events are way out of proportion, but a lot of it could have been prevented in the first place.

Yeah, law defines what is right and what is wrong, since not everybody believes the same shit. When you go to a new country you have to abide by their laws, even if it's something dumb like "No smacking women around". Obviously.

The point is you can believe whatever the hell you want, but suck it up and stop being such a pussy. WHAAAA, SOMEBODY THINKS MY RELIGION IS A FUCKING JOKE, BOO HOO. Pricks should be content with the fact that the heretic is going to hell.

I'm really getting sick of not being able to drop cunt bombs in public. Maybe if everybody started dropping cunt bombs, it would lose meaning and become a standard part of every day conversation. Then nobody would really give a shit, and censoring would become a thing of the past. We need to stop catering to the weak minded. We're breeding pussies, and causing more problems by trying not to break the protective bubble that is shielding them from non-pussydom.

I care because? I think you need to go back and consider what I've written in this thread.

I'll sum it up for you in case you're slow: Since this whole thing about free speech started with you saying the US doesn't have free speech, If you're in THIS COUNTRY, I don't have to agree with your point of view, but I will defend your right to present and believe in it. If you decide to injure, kill or cause some other kind of harm to someone and use your POV to justify it, then you have stepped over the line. If you violate established slander or libel laws that prevent you from making false, wild accusations about a person in public, then you deserve to have your free speech limited.

"law defines what is right and what is wrong and that it is ok to do anything within the boundaries set by a nations national law."

How silly is that statement of yours.. you mean to tell me one does not have the right to work within the confines of the law? If laws don't work for the benefit and protection of all people, they're changed if anyone cares enough to launch a crusade to change them.

But then I guess if Qur'anic law says it's ok to fly to Denmark and Sweeden and kill cartoonists who draw pictures of Mohammed--good or bad, then I guess you'll have to take that up with the officials in those countries when you get caught. Better yet, maybe the justice department in an Islamic state should request the arrest of the cartoonist and hold an extradition hearing. Naw, fuck all that, let's just hold protests and start burning down embassies and throwing rocks at Christians.

Let me just say this: The minute you step over the line from rhetoric to action, you'd better hope the other guy doesn't have an army behind him. I hear Mississippi Burning is a pretty good film, btw.

oh yeah, and as doomer just pointed out, you abide by the laws of the locality you're in--whether you live there or not. When Turbine posted "Freedom of speech is not freedom of racism," he didn't specify locality, he just threw it up in the air, so I responded in terms of my country... not your partial belief in the Bible as a moral compass.

Since this whole thing about free speech started with you saying the US doesn't have free speech

no it did not

If you decide to injure, kill or cause some other kind of harm to someone and use your POV to justify it, then you have stepped over the line.

exactly what the cartoonists did, thank you for stipulating my point

How silly is that statement of yours.. you mean to tell me one does not have the right to work within the confines of the law? If laws don't work for the benefit and protection of all people, they're changed if anyone cares enough to launch a crusade to change them.

you take it all so literally. ofcourse I dont.
But law is imperfect; people should have a more inate sense of good and evil, right and wrong; law is to limited for a lot of issues, including this case

But then I guess if Qur'anic law says it's ok to fly to Denmark and Sweeden and kill cartoonists who draw pictures of Mohammed--good or bad, then I guess you'll have to take that up with the officials in those countries when you get caught. Better yet, maybe the justice department in an Islamic state should request the arrest of the cartoonist and hold an extradition hearing.

see, you swear by your national law, but someone elses is wrong?
what is this? who are you to judge what law is better then another?
ofcourse that would be a moronic issue, but who are we to define what is right and what is wrong?
a lawbook is a poor excuse to define the boundaries for such issues

Some Danish cartoonist characterizes the prophet in a certain way where it's legal and it sets off a wave of protest across the globe in countries where doing what he did would have gotten him drawn and quartered. So by your logic, the Dane and his boss should have taken that into account? I'm sure I do one thing every day that's offensive in some other culture... I don't really care.

Show me an instance where I've judged the value of a single law over another and have tried to impose it on another society. If you think I did that in my previous post, which you just replied to, you're wrong. I pointed out that the laws in Islamic societies don't matter in the country where the cartoons were drawn. If the cartoonist had done his work in Iran, good luck to him... It's not a value judgement, it's just the simple fact that the cartoonist is under no obligation to respect the laws of Islam sitting in his office in Copenhagen or wherever it happens to be.

bort wrote:anyone got a copy of these cartoons, can't seem to find em

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/sarticle.php?id=12146
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