The old 'Huge Maps' question

[Foo]

I've been ticking over watching the recent calls for more Pass The Map type projects to get underway, and was musing the idea of a system to check in/out a single map file or collection of files and thus allow a more free-form collaboration on it.

But I digress - We've had threads here discussing the maximum map sizes and constraints before but not many of them turn up in search. Maybe I just use crap terms, I dunno.

What are the limitations likely to be encountered in creating the biggest, most complex map possible? I'm vaguely aware of the existence of MAX_PATCHES_ON_WINDING and a couple of other odd ones, but to discover and find ways around as many of these as possible would be very handy.

[CheapAlert]

Darkplaces can support maps bigger than what a 32-bit processor can handle

[Foo]

Not interested in non-Q3.

Could stretch to ioquake at a push, but I don't think they've made any strides on that side of things as it's not their focus.

Most of the limitations are on the compiler it seems.

[4days]

things like the entity/size limits are in the engine rather than the map compiler*

*possibly bollocks

[Shallow]

Yes, entity limits are engine-side. I remember Castle had problems with rockets starting to disappear and stuff in his Water Giant map (remake of Lava Giant from UT) (OT: Castle most recently worked on Sin Episodes)

As for size limits, depends what sort of 'size' you're referring to I think (but wait for definitive coder answer, IR just dumbe brush monkey).

It's probably easier to hit MAX_MAP_SHADERS than you might think as well, each shader plus lightmap combination counts as a unique shader towards this limit IIRC. Converting stuff to models or using vertex lit shaders can work around it.

It's pretty easy to break vis if you don't build with a hull and stick to it with terrain style maps. Things like Enemy Territory maps with terrain plus quite detailed architecture can be a bugger for this. Just one small brush accidentally left structural in the wrong place can screw vis times badly, a bunch of them scattered around could break it totally.

MAX_MAP_LIGHTING comes up a fair bit from people making big Jedi Knight maps it seems. Mostly it goes away if they use a proper q3map2 sky shader or a few entity suns rather than the old surfacelight method.

[spookmineer]

Yea I had problems with lighting my last map. No sky shader possible, a bunch of really long strafe lanes, each strafe pad lit by 4 lights, lighting the long halls as well, I couldn't add another room which I would have like to :/
Never thought about adding a sky shader... But as it was a remake I wanted to stay close to the original.

[Foo]

Ey while we're at it, what are some of the larger maps you all know of?

In terms of being maps you could wander round for a few hours, as opposed to ones that are just a lot of wide open spaces, that is.

[spookmineer]

For hours? In Q3...? Don't know if there are any :/
There is this one biggest map I know of that is just a big box (so that falls into the category you're not looking for...) have to clear about 64,000 units in less then 4 seconds.

[Foo]

I have this really enjoyable vision in my head of a truly massive map with just tons and tons of interesting things to look at and explore.

Like it would be divided up into large sectors with a specific theme (think Crystal Maze), so there's an egyptian sector, a medieval sector, tech, mayan, and so on.

UT would perhaps provide a better platform for that kind of thing, I dunno.

[Hipshot]

It took me 12Min to run from one corner to another (diagonal) when making the biggest map possible in Q3. About +65K/-65KUs.

If this was a real map, with paths, doors, walls, levels, stairs, etc, I can easily see how 12Min would became hours.

[Hipshot]

Hmm, It would be very cool to make a "real" damn large map with alot of arenas... but it would like take, 2 years? =)

...and 500 years to compile...

[Foo]

Yeah compile would be sonofabitch.

The time it would take to construct I could bear - Indeed, having people add their own self-contained set-pieces into the level would bring more meaning to the project and speed things along. Hence the need for it to be a planned segmented space.

[spookmineer]

It took me 12Min to run from one corner to another (diagonal) when making the biggest map possible in Q3. About +65K/-65KUs.

If this was a real map, with paths, doors, walls, levels, stairs, etc, I can easily see how 12Min would became hours.

It's a defrag run map... Lots of quaded rockets can take you somewhere else really fast

With lots of different rooms, routes crossing on different levels, it may be possible to wander for hours but is it technically feasible? With all the limits of the engine...
Maybe, if separate rooms are vised correctly and efficiently it might be, but there is either a max lights limit, and when you're going to use a sky shader, vis will be a problem (if you want to have different routes on top of eachother).
The map I made "only" consists of 18 separate rooms (some are large) and the problem I ran into was max lights exceeding :/

Maybe with large, box shaped (or cilindrical) rooms from bottom to sky shader, and paths that go slightly upward (so you can enter the "same" room again, but on a different level, so in effect a new room) it might be possible, but lighting the lower parts of the rooms is still tricky?

[Foo]

PS made the distance diagonally in 5 mins flat by strafing

[spookmineer]

lol you strafed for 5 mins!? wow...
It's nicer to just fly accross with over 17,000 ups :P

[Foo]

lol you strafed for 5 mins!? wow...
It's nicer to just fly accross with over 17,000 ups :P

I didn't have my headphones on and fucked up the jump timings a few times... stopped nearly dead.

[spookmineer]

Found the movie I made a while back for some players who wanted to know what the biggest map is (well... that I know of) but I wouldn't call it exploring...:

http://rapidshare.de/files/22227251/gofast.zip.html

Scroll down, click "free" (second column), wait a few seconds, type in the code and click "start download".

[Myth]

I have this really enjoyable vision in my head of a truly massive map with just tons and tons of interesting things to look at and explore.

Like it would be divided up into large sectors with a specific theme (think Crystal Maze), so there's an egyptian sector, a medieval sector, tech, mayan, and so on.

Hell yeah that would be sweet, but you'd need an army to make it.

[obsidian]

Maybe you can make a normal sized map (replace stairs with ramps, etc) and then use Q3Map2 to scale it to large sizes. Much less work... or is that considered cheating?

[Foo]

Wouldn't be very interesting?

[Hipshot]

Would look stupid?

[Kat]

*holds pin to burst bubble*

Can't be done unless you want a really basic map. You'd hit any one of the max_map errors once you started to add more details than a few blocks here and there.

[Fjoggs]

*holds pin to burst bubble*

Can't be done unless you want a really basic map. You'd hit any one of the max_map errors once you started to add more details than a few blocks here and there.

meanie!

[pjw]

Ey while we're at it, what are some of the larger maps you all know of?

In terms of being maps you could wander round for a few hours, as opposed to ones that are just a lot of wide open spaces, that is.

Anyone who hasn't played it should check out SPoGSP1, which is pretty much the hugest coolest SP Q2 map ever made.

Download Mirror

[axbaby]

why not splice some well known q3w community made maps together and see what you come up with.