I've been putzing around with this for a few evenings... And it occurred to me that while I play a lot of duel maps, I don't really "know" what makes a good 1 vs 1 map. Certainly, my previous efforts have been in FFA maps, at least.
So, in an effort to garner feedback before I make an investment in a visual style (most of this map looks like lego blocks, at the moment, and the ambient lighting is overbright)... I'm hoping somebody would give this a whirl and send me some feedback?
http://turkeyfiles.escapedturkey.net/qu ... t1apha.pk4
Screenshot: http://www.kilnet.org/images/grinderbeta1.jpg
Concerns:
-Too much armour?
-Do I need a rail gun? I like the idea, but there are some large areas in which it might be a bit easy for rail gunners to control the map..
(Please don't take the time to email me and say "it's ugly". Yep, it is. I get that. I've not started making it look nice, yet.) :icon31:
Q4 Duel Map: Alpha Test
I don't really have time to check it out at the moment, but this is a really good 1-on-1 guide by wviperw: http://www.promode.org/maps/guide/
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phantazm11
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:03 am
man this map is ugly!
But mine is uglier
I like a lot of the areas. The RG room is my favorite, with the pseudo-bridge above the support posts. Good stuff
I'm no great dueler, but it seems to me like the RL/RA room would be real easy to control. Mostly because it takes like two seconds to grab the armor and get back to the RL ledge, where you can see most of the exits. And there is a pretty big health in the room also, and a YA right around the corner.
Of course, there is a lot of armor to go around in the map, so it might work ok. Very hard to tell without actually playing somebody on it.
Some of the rooms seem a little big for the rail, but with all of the armor, it might not seem so bad.
I like the feel of the map so far. Keep up the good work!
phantazm11
But mine is uglier
I like a lot of the areas. The RG room is my favorite, with the pseudo-bridge above the support posts. Good stuff
I'm no great dueler, but it seems to me like the RL/RA room would be real easy to control. Mostly because it takes like two seconds to grab the armor and get back to the RL ledge, where you can see most of the exits. And there is a pretty big health in the room also, and a YA right around the corner.
Of course, there is a lot of armor to go around in the map, so it might work ok. Very hard to tell without actually playing somebody on it.
Some of the rooms seem a little big for the rail, but with all of the armor, it might not seem so bad.
I like the feel of the map so far. Keep up the good work!
phantazm11
Thanks for the feedback. (And the link; although I've read that guide before, it deserves to be posted often..)
I've been a bit concerned about the RA-RL positions.. So far they're the most "grey". I'll give it a shot on LAN and see how it plays out..
(Phantazm11: Mine's still pretty ugly, even with your no-texture action.. But I'm looking forward to playing your new map, too.)
I've been a bit concerned about the RA-RL positions.. So far they're the most "grey". I'll give it a shot on LAN and see how it plays out..
(Phantazm11: Mine's still pretty ugly, even with your no-texture action.. But I'm looking forward to playing your new map, too.)
Just ran around on it. Note: I didn't actually play anyone, so, as always, take this kind of feedback with a grain of salt:
-layout seems okay, nothing spectacular, but like a good start for duel
-scale seemed wrong in areas: stairs were too wide, there was too much vertical scale in most the map. The notion of multi-level fighting (aka verticality) is weird in that if there is TOO much of a height difference between levels it diminishes fighting. I think if you tightened up the vertical scale it'd play better. All theory though.
-some bad LOSes (line-of-sights), meaning 1) potentially poor performance and worse 2) rail dominates. Notably the LOS to RA was bad and could be easily fixed by jutting walls out more.
-item placement seemed off and on. Armors seemed okay, though you might need an MH instead of the 2nd YA to balance things out, otherwise a player can just run YA->RA easily. Wasn't a big fan of the weapon placement, notably the RG/LG, but I don't really have any alternatives atm.
-unlike phantazm, I *didn't* like the rail room at all. :P Seemed off by itself and like it wouldn't make for good gameplay at due to the way it is setup. I'd completely revamp the room, tightening it up (it's too large now) and moving the 2nd floor path to one side of the room so there is more multi-level fighting.
-Whether to have the rail in the map or not is really up to you, although I think the map seems like it might work w/o rail. If you do keep rail, I'd move it to somewhere more 'dangerous'.
-RA area seems like too much of a trap now. The JP way out is a complete trap if the other guy has LG/RG. I think you should maybe put a stairway opposite of the RA along that far wall (next to the bridge) and make that an option.
-layout seems okay, nothing spectacular, but like a good start for duel
-scale seemed wrong in areas: stairs were too wide, there was too much vertical scale in most the map. The notion of multi-level fighting (aka verticality) is weird in that if there is TOO much of a height difference between levels it diminishes fighting. I think if you tightened up the vertical scale it'd play better. All theory though.
-some bad LOSes (line-of-sights), meaning 1) potentially poor performance and worse 2) rail dominates. Notably the LOS to RA was bad and could be easily fixed by jutting walls out more.
-item placement seemed off and on. Armors seemed okay, though you might need an MH instead of the 2nd YA to balance things out, otherwise a player can just run YA->RA easily. Wasn't a big fan of the weapon placement, notably the RG/LG, but I don't really have any alternatives atm.
-unlike phantazm, I *didn't* like the rail room at all. :P Seemed off by itself and like it wouldn't make for good gameplay at due to the way it is setup. I'd completely revamp the room, tightening it up (it's too large now) and moving the 2nd floor path to one side of the room so there is more multi-level fighting.
-Whether to have the rail in the map or not is really up to you, although I think the map seems like it might work w/o rail. If you do keep rail, I'd move it to somewhere more 'dangerous'.
-RA area seems like too much of a trap now. The JP way out is a complete trap if the other guy has LG/RG. I think you should maybe put a stairway opposite of the RA along that far wall (next to the bridge) and make that an option.
[url=http://www.goodstuffmaynard.com]Good Stuff, Maynard![/url]
Thanks.. Yeah, the next build already deals with some of the long "lines of rail" in the map, and I agree that the rail room needs to be cozier. Maybe if the tele area had stairs leading up, bringing the "low" level up a few notches..
I have mixed feelings about the "bridge" in the rail room.. It does look out of place, but I like the idea of encouraging player A to set up a sniping position only if they're willing to accept that player B may teleport in directly behind them... I'm going to hand this alpha off to some guys at a LAN this weekend and see how gameplay works.
I wonder if we've finally gotten to a phase where the rail is almost always too dominant? I thought it was already in a dangerous place, but definately making it worse wouldn't hurt. Good stuff to ponder.
I have mixed feelings about the "bridge" in the rail room.. It does look out of place, but I like the idea of encouraging player A to set up a sniping position only if they're willing to accept that player B may teleport in directly behind them... I'm going to hand this alpha off to some guys at a LAN this weekend and see how gameplay works.
I wonder if we've finally gotten to a phase where the rail is almost always too dominant? I thought it was already in a dangerous place, but definately making it worse wouldn't hurt. Good stuff to ponder.
Updates in progress...
http://www.kilnet.org/images/grinderbeta2.jpg
Poll:
It's more "dangerous" to pick up the Rail Gun if it's
1) On top of something tricky-to-jump-to in an open area.
2) In an easily-spammed location
3) in a tiny crawlspace
http://www.kilnet.org/images/grinderbeta2.jpg
Poll:
It's more "dangerous" to pick up the Rail Gun if it's
1) On top of something tricky-to-jump-to in an open area.
2) In an easily-spammed location
3) in a tiny crawlspace
I'm sure you can do that. Ammocount or something I think. Check the spawn flags or resources about spawn flags. Though if you drop it and someone else picks it up, they get full ammo for it.GODLIKE wrote:
#1 and #3 together sound cool too...
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StormShadow
- Posts: 557
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:10 pm
Nice map, good layout.
Most of wvw's comments were dead on - particularly about the lines of sight. I disagree about the RA area however - I like that its difficult to get out of.
The scale of some of the rooms seems too large.
I would *not* put a railgun in this map. But if you do, as stated before, put it in a tough location, and dont add any rail ammo.
I vote for #3. Maybe have a drop down into the railgun room/corridor and have one narrow exit. Possibly add a sound cue as well (pool of water under the gun), so the opponent knows when youve grabbed the rail without actually seeing you go for it.
Most of wvw's comments were dead on - particularly about the lines of sight. I disagree about the RA area however - I like that its difficult to get out of.
The scale of some of the rooms seems too large.
I would *not* put a railgun in this map. But if you do, as stated before, put it in a tough location, and dont add any rail ammo.
I vote for #3. Maybe have a drop down into the railgun room/corridor and have one narrow exit. Possibly add a sound cue as well (pool of water under the gun), so the opponent knows when youve grabbed the rail without actually seeing you go for it.
"Scale" is a hard issue to address without major surgery; however I've made some effort to address this in the current version (alpha2? Beta1?). The center room feels much more snug, now, and I imagine the rail room will too, once it's put together.
I'm trying to solidify some of the architecture a bit more before proceeding, and everything is coming together EXCEPT the rail room, which will be quite different from the original. I still can't decide whether it's okay to keep the RG in the map, but I'll try a few experiments and try to decide on a spawn that I like.
I like the "sound cues" idea for the RG pickup though.. Thanks for all the ideas.
I'm trying to solidify some of the architecture a bit more before proceeding, and everything is coming together EXCEPT the rail room, which will be quite different from the original. I still can't decide whether it's okay to keep the RG in the map, but I'll try a few experiments and try to decide on a spawn that I like.
I like the "sound cues" idea for the RG pickup though.. Thanks for all the ideas.