TDM map theory?

Post by **GODLIKE** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:02 pm

Anybody know of a good theory resource for 2v2 mapping?

:icon26:

Post by **Foo** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:09 pm

promode.org if anywhere. Perhaps ESR if there happens to be an article.

Post by **GODLIKE** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:15 pm

wviperw's guide and lunaran's stuff are easy to find; both are pretty good.. But something 2v2 specific would be nice.

Post by **GODLIKE** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:20 am

Actually, while I'm thinking of it.. What are everybody's notion of "best" TDM maps for Q3? (Q4 doesn't have any, yet)?

(Aside from Q3dm6.) :P

Post by **StormShadow** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:32 pm

In pretty much descending order: ospdm5, cpm4, ospdm6, q3dm14TMP, q3dm7

These are the maps that were primarilly played at events and tournaments.

Post by **hemostick** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:24 pm

Absolutely, but in a different order for me - I think I'd swap osp6 and dm14

Post by **GODLIKE** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:42 am

Nice.. Thx lads. :icon31:

Post by **voodoochopstiks** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:29 am

Imo those 2v2's are a bit big, but I guess that's vq3 for you. In CPM we use CPM15, CPM16, CPM25, CPM29 for 2on2(I may have forgotten one), which are a bit tighter, like q4 maps often are.

Post by **voodoochopstiks** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:33 am

Basic theory: Don't make control impossible, try to fit in ~2-3 armors, possibly a mega, a quad or another powerup of sorts is vital to a good 2v2 imo. Go for something like ~150-250 health total on the map, not counting mega. Try to keep important items in fun combat areas, like the quad area needs to be really exciting to fight in, since that will have a lot of big fights over it, same with RA.

Post by **GODLIKE** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:44 pm

CPM29 is pretty nice ; I love the HH3 textures.

Thx for the design tips..

Post by **a13n** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:57 am

Is there any article to describe how to make a successful tdm map for bot play if I'm not being too intrusive?

Post by **poub_** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:02 pm

cardigan wrote a bot guide for two of his maps, that should help you

Post by **a13n** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:12 pm

Yeah, I've alreay read his guide.

By the way does anyone here play tdm with bots seriously?

For instance do you bind team orders and actually use them?
Do they really work effectively?
Or do they just piss you off?

Post by **Pext** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:08 am

hm... this could be a serious challenge. 1.5 vs 1.5 ~ one player/one bot per team. what bot commands are possible? are you able to give them orders to go to a certain zone?

Post by **4days** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:36 am

a13n wrote:Yeah, I've alreay read his guide.

By the way does anyone here play tdm with bots seriously?
For instance do you bind team orders and actually use them?
Do they really work effectively?
Or do they just piss you off?

i've used the bots when lanning against people (ctf with 1 or 3 other players), and they do follow orders.

from:
http://www.madchat.org/coding/ai/games/quake/jw01.pdf

Help someone

Bots can be ordered to help someone. For instance “Grunt help Hunter” or “Grunt help
me”. The bot will go to the person in need of help and will try to be of assistance.

Accompany someone

Bots can be ordered to accompany someone. For instance “Grunt follow Hunter” or
“Grunt accompany me”. A bot ordered to follow someone will go towards the player who
needs company and will follow this player around. When the player to be followed ends
up in a fight the bot will assist in the battle.

Defend key area

Bots can also defend a key area. A player or team leader can for instance order a bot as
follows: “Grunt defend the base” or “Grunt guard the railgun”. When ordered to do so the
bot will defend the key area.

Get the enemy flag

In CTF mode bots can be ordered to capture the enemy flag. For instance “Grunt get the
enemy flag”. Grunt will then go of to the enemy base and will try to retrieve the enemy
flag.

Return our flag

When the base flag is stolen by the enemy team in CTF mode the bots can be ordered
to return the flag. For instance “Grunt return our flag”. Grunt will then go of to find the
flag of its team. The bot will try to return the flag to the base by killing the enemy carrying
it and picking up the dropped flag.

Rush to the base

In CTF mode bots can be ordered to rush back to the base. When the base is under
attack by the enemy a bot can be ordered to come back for assistance. For instance
“Grunt rush to the base”. Grunt will then run back to the base trying to eliminate any
resistance encountered.

Camp

Bots can be told to camp somewhere. For instance “Grunt camp the railgun”. Grunt will
then camp near the railgun. A player or team leader can also order a bot to camp at its
current location. For instance “Grunt camp there”. When a bot is supposed to camp at
the location of the player who orders, then “Grunt camp here” can be used.

Patrol

Bots can patrol a certain area or a specific number of key areas. A bot can be ordered to
patrol by for instance saying “Grunt patrol from the railgun to the rocket launcher to the
red armor and back”. Grunt will then walk from the railgun to the rocket launcher to the
red armor to the railgun etc. In this case the bot loops in a circle along the three items. If
the bot is supposed to go back and forth, a player can order the bot as follows: “Grunt
patrol from the railgun to the rocket launcher to the red armor and reverse. The bot will
now go from the railgun to the rocket launcher to the red armor to the rocket launcher to
the railgun etc. The bot can be ordered to patrol between any number of key areas
and/or items.
Get item

Bots can be ordered to retrieve a specific item. For instance “Grunt get the rocket
launcher”. Grunt will then go of to get the rocket launcher.

Kill

Bots can be sent after a specific player on the enemy team. For instance: “Grunt kill
Hunter”. Grunt will then try to hunt down Hunter.

Lead the way

A bot can be told to lead someone the way towards its goal. For instance “Grunt lead
Sarge the way”. If Grunt is not anywhere near Sarge then Grunt will first go to Sarge.
From there Grunt will lead Sarge the way, and wait if Sarge cannot keep up. In case
Grunt looses sight with Sarge then Grunt will go back to find Sarge.

Dismiss

Bots can be dismissed from their currently ordered task. For instance “Grunt dismissed”.
When dismissed, the bot will decide for itself what to do.

Start team leadership

A bot can be ordered to be the team leader. For instance “Grunt you are the leader”.
Grunt will then become the team leader and will tell other human and artificial players on
its team what to do.

Stop team leadership

The team leader can also to stop being the leader and leave the job for someone else.
For instance “I stop being the team leader”. Someone else can also tell that the team
leader stops fulfilling that task. For instance “Grunt stops being the leader”. In both cases
all the bots on a team will know that the team leader resigned his job and a new team
leader can be chosen.

Join sub team

Sub teams or squads can be created within a team. Bots can be ordered to create a sub
team or squad. For instance “Grunt and Sarge create team alpha”. Both Grunt and
Sarge will then join the sub team named alpha. Bots can also be ordered to join an
existing sub team. For instance “Hunter join squad alpha”. All members of a sub team
can be ordered to do something by using the sub team name. For instance “alpha
defend the base”. All bots in team alpha will now defend the base.

Leave sub team

Bots that are in a sub team can be ordered to leave the sub team. For instance “Grunt
leave your team”. Grunt will now no longer be in any team. Bots do not have to leave
their current sub team before they can be ordered to join another team.

Post by **a13n** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:05 am

@4days
Thank you for the link.
I roughly scanned through the document.
Some are difficult for me but it was fun to read overall.

By the way, according to the pdf, its creation date is 2001.
Has this kind of docment been ever available?

And which can be a better team leader, human or bot?

Post by **Infernis** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:38 pm

No single article regarding tdm mapping?

Post by **Fjoggs** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:50 pm

Geit had one, but his site is down.

Post by **Lukin** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:10 pm

Geit's article: How to make a successful TDM map

Post by **Quack** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:06 am

I'm currently working on making a really big TDM. The basic bounding box for the map will be about 4000x4000 on the xy, and about 2000 on the z. A few general questions about how to accomdate for the size.

What's the max number of players to expect on typical servers?

How many spawns should there be on the map?

How many YA & RA should be available?

How do you prevent railgun from dominating the map from sniper positions? I've currently placed two railguns. How many rail ammo packs?

Are there any maps out there that are close to this size for comparison?

Any suggestions for a map this size are welcome!!!

Post by **Fjoggs** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:14 am

My recommendation would be to lower it's size drastically :icon3:

Post by **maz0r** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:12 am

Maybe specify the supposed gametype first? FFA I would guess?

Post by **Quack** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:36 am

The map is built for TDM, it works for FFA also. Most of the map is symmetrical with respect to the origin. The main focus of the map is a big open area with 4 spiral staircases, 4 wormy spiral staircases (weaving left and right) and 2 double helix staircases. Each staircase allows a person to cover about two-three choke points, there are a total of 6 entrances/exits from the interior to the exterior where the staircases are located. So if you have enough teammates in the right places, covering the right exits, it could easily turn into a rail fest. I fear that railgun may dominate the map.

Post by **maz0r** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:24 pm

a tdm map with two railguns? never came up to something like this before. And symmetrical maps tend to become boring fast. Maybe Fjoggs is right with his suggestion.