[Q3] mz3tourney1 - Second Alpha *updated*

[maz0r]

Second alpha is ready.

See below for more details.

Quick Access
Direct Download from airrocket.net (Thanks to dichtfux) (~2,5mb)
Download from FileFactory
Download from PutStuff/PutFile

Bot file (put it into your /baseq3/maps/ dir, you may need to set sv_pure 0):
Download. (~300kb)

Here's the original starting post for the first alpha version:

Hey guys,

I haven't been mapping for a long long time and started again recently. TBH I hope this is my first q3 map ever which is going to be finished
(You know the issue: starting a map and abandon it later is quite easy )
So finally I created an alpha for my upcoming tourney map.
Main goals are:
- keep it compact but not too small, maybe even allowing 2on2
- vertical action
- implement some neat trick jumps
- fair, square and balanced
Okay so here are some screenshots. As you can see, only dummy textures and no detailed brushwork yet.

Main area with RA:
[lvlshot]http://maz0r.ma.funpic.de/q3/alpha1.jpg[/lvlshot]
YA area:
[lvlshot]http://maz0r.ma.funpic.de/q3/alpha2.jpg[/lvlshot]
MH area:
[lvlshot]http://maz0r.ma.funpic.de/q3/alpha3.jpg[/lvlshot]

I'm looking for feedback on everything but especially on item placement, flow and gameplay and portalling / performance issues. Since my lack of experience in q3 mapping I'm very uncertain if my map will work as I wanted. Hence tons of questions coming up

Considering Flow & Gameplay:
- Too much corridors (and maybe even too cramped)? Insert more corners to minimize LOS and rail whoring?
- Too much/less spawn points (atm 7)? Well placed? I'm a bit afraid in putting them on a higher level near the goodies, giving the guy which spawns there at the start of the game a slight advantage?
- What about the ya area. Too big? Off the beaten track? Any ideas for this site? I'm a little unsatisfied with the actual result.
- Too much jumppads? Maybe remove some and add more stairs/slopes?

Considering the item placement:
- Enough ammo? (currently IIRC 2xMG, 2xSG, 2xPG, 3xRL, 1xRL, 1xLG, 2xGL)
- Too much health (currently 1xMH, 2x50, 3x25, 6x5)?
- Maybe add another YA (currently 1xRA, 1xYA, 7xShards) where rail ammo is?
- Weapons placement improvable? (currently 2xSG,1xRL,1xLG,1xGL,1xRG,1xPG) (maybe add another RL?)
- Items too much out of the way?
- What about armor placement and the MH?

Considering Performance:
- What about r_speeds? What's the important figure there? Leafs?
- Portals seem okay with r_showtris, don't they?

Btw I'm planning to use the eq2 texture set to give it a quake2ish look and feel. Any other ideas maybe? And sometimes in the near future I want to bring this map to q4 to learn more about mapping for it. But this will have to wait until my new rig arrives. Oh and also expect a q3ctf alpha soon

Oh almost forgot: The Download (162kB)

Thanks in advance,
maz0r

[xgo]

ok will check it out

[v1l3]

nice layout

[ANIMAL1988]

Looks really good. Take it you have made a few maps that havn't been finished?

[ANIMAL1988]

Also. Maybe im not qualified to say this but i think it would be ashame if you removed anything from this map.

[maz0r]

thank you very much vile and animal. at least two opinions.

no more well-founded reviews?

[Survivor]

I think that map has a great movement patern and pretty much 100% potential.
And 2 vs 2 is out of the question. 1 vs 1 will rule.

Only thing I don't like is the mh. Don't think you should enter it or either enter it in the spot of the ra and remove the ra.


But really. If you have to finish one map, please let it be this one.

[maz0r]

Put it where RA is would lead to 75 armor in the YA area (together with the shards) and no at all in the current RA area. Would also result in easy domination of the map since you can run the armor and the MH quite easily while not caring for a third import item. And do you know any good 1on1 map without MH?

But I'm thinking of redoing the MH area, I'm not totally satisfied with it yet.

Oh and thanks for testing the map.

[Foo]

Just had a network game with the map, more of a quick runaround than a proper duel. Unfortunately we were finding it hard to duel properly on it due to a couple of issues:

The pipes up top on the main room just impair movement and irritate. They don't effectively block you from dropping to the lower shelf, but they do force you to pull off some awkward slides to accomplish the transition. IMO they could do to go up out of the way.

MH room felt a bit wonky for sure, but more the shotgun placement than anything IMO needs to be more accessible in the middle of the room or walkway rather than in a corner where you're going to get hammered when all you want is a decent starting weapon. if anything the MH is less vulnerable than the shotgun which doesn't sit right with me.

The drop above the RA really felt like a gimmick. Nothing really wrong with it, but it's easy to camp and a protracted, quite boring route to reach it. My gut feeling on that one is to drop it or make it a teleporter-based drop in rather than something you walk to. Has good potential to be part of a feature area if you turn it into a big tap, though

Teleporter exit area feels bland and in need of more routes. Both jumppads out of the area take you to the same ledge.

Map is hard to make out at low graphics settings, even with these big blocky temp textures because there's no contrast between walls/floors. Also, lighting needed in some of the corridors, even for testing. Adds some depth to the view.

Definitely has some potential though sir, it's a good size (possibly bordering on a little too large and sparse) and the connectivity works.

[maz0r]

Yeah thanks Foo, that's feedback I was looking for.

Some comments though:
The pipes should block the possibility to jump to the RA from the upper ledge. Also it *SHOULD* be harder to drop to the pg floor, since I intend to reduce camping there with these pipes. IMO they dont interfere with the movement at all, but your opinion will be reminded. I'll maybe tone down (defuse? ease? what's the proper verb here? ) the pipes a bit for the next alpha/beta.

MH room is indeed a bit wonky. Problem was to keep it small but still good to navigate and with place to fight. Will open it up a bit, especially the floor. You're right with the shotgun, thought that also but forgot to change it for the alpha.

Ok the drop, I had a teleporter in mind first, but had problems to make it work both ways (since I wanted to make it accessible by rocket jumping). I agree with the camping issue. Will redo this thing, got an idea already with a teleporter.

Agree with the tele exit room, also dislike it like I already stated above. Just wanted to finish the alpha and layed down that section in a hurry. Atm it feels just too boxy and it will change for sure.

Did not mess with the lighting at all, just put an ambient and the sky light in to brighten it up. Will choose textures with some more contrast for the next version.

Thanks again for the feedback. Will work on the next version now.

[maz0r]

Okay, here comes the second alpha.

Changes
MH Room:
- redesigned the layout and made it more open, moved the MH a little to the side on a new structure
- removed the lower bouncepad which was kind of senseless and always in the way. IMO the flow now works better.

RA Room:
- removed the 'drop'
- added another floor where the drop was and connected the bridge behind the pipes with the upper floor in the tele exit room

YA Area:
- completely reworked this area. got rid of the bland space with the tele exit, put RL where YA was, moved YA into the middle of room with the shards.
- Rail is now placed in a seperate dead end tunnel near the YA. You can also crouch in here from below the tele exit.
- implemented a tele trick jump to cut short the way to second floor

Textured all areas. Be aware, that all these textures, lights and other visuals are temporary. Visuals will be done for the first beta release. But I hope this helps to navigate through the map even with low graphic settings.

Further ideas:
- Removing the bouncepad to the shards, replacing it with a staircase up to the 3rd floor.
- Add some items to the new upper floor in ra room, maybe a good weapon
- remix the items some more (especially the shards and 5h bubbles)

Screenshots
MH Room:
[lvlshot]http://maz0r.ma.funpic.de/q3/beta1.jpg[/lvlshot]

YA Room:
[lvlshot]http://maz0r.ma.funpic.de/q3/beta2.jpg[/lvlshot]

Tele Exit Room:
[lvlshot]http://maz0r.ma.funpic.de/q3/beta3.jpg[/lvlshot]

RA Room:
[lvlshot]http://maz0r.ma.funpic.de/q3/beta4.jpg[/lvlshot]

Download
Sadly, no free space available. File size is about 2,5 megs.
Download from FileFactory
Download from PutStuff/PutFile

Edit:
Direct Download from airrocket.net (Thanks to dichtfux)

Bot file:
Download (direct link). (~300kb)
Put it into your /baseq3/maps-directory and have fun smashing some bots. Not that smart on the map and since they don't pick up the ra, the fight takes place at ya. Maybe you have to set sv_pure 0 to use this .aas file, but for me it worked without.

I'm still looking for feedback about the playability, connectivity, flow and item placement.

So long, maz0r

[dichtfux]

Mirror anyone?

>here you are<

[maz0r]

That's nice. Man dankt!

[dichtfux]

Layout looks good. :icon14:

Some things I noticed:

* RA YA is quite fast when going through tele

* upper level has little to offer (yes, there's access to MH and RA, but you can get RA from medium level without having to got up there and if you use the JP in the MH room to get the MH you will be at the lower level again after grabbing it.), maybe an interesting weapon should go up there (or at least a GA for CPMA if you care for CPMA. the telejump make me think so, though.)

* I'm not sure about the small exit from RG that forces you to crawl out inch by inch. Takes to long to be usefull. If you get hammered at RG, this definetly won't help you. If you want to keep it, I suggest you lower the distance you have to crouch at least a bit.

EDIT: to clarify this: I know it's not meant to be a good way, but atm it sucks too much.

* corridors on upper level seem a bit narrow for me

That's it for now. Please keep working on it!

btw, two more things:
* my server auto-cleans the "mirror/4weeks/" directory every 28 days, so the mirror of your alpha will be gone in ~4 weeks.

*

And do you know any good 1on1 map without MH?

cpm1a.

[maz0r]

Well, I don't care about CPM
You're right with the corridors, I'm already planning to polish them for the beta release. Also wondered why nobody complained about them earlier.

RA->YA: It's actually even faster to reach the YA along the second floor. But the map is so small you can reach all places as fast, so I think it's quite okay right now. Also by collecting the YA you will need some time to get to the upper level again to gain the mh or just to continue controlling the map.

You're right with the upper level. Maybe I'll place the first RL on the ledge above the RA. Or the LG, will see.

The RG slide will be tweaked in the next version. I am beware of this issue and was too lazy to fix it for this alpha release
Btw it's main purpose is to offer an entrance to the rail, not an exit from. I think it will become some sort of window which you can enter without crouching from the tele exit, but needs a rocket jump or plasma climb to get out.

Thanks again for the mirror. Four weeks are more than enough. By this time my new server will be up and running, hopefully.

Alas, cpm1a earns you a point, dichtfux. But then again it's not THAT famous for osp duels.

Oh and of course thanks for the review/suggestions. Where are the other opinions? xgo? foo? anyone? *sniff*

[xgo]

I promise to play it this weekend
hope we can get it into produels if its good, i really want new maps ;P
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1353374

[maz0r]

That would be awesome dude! Thanks a lot.

[v1l3]

cpm1a earns you a point, dichtfux. But then again it's not THAT famous for osp duels.

Actually it was many years back

Where are the other opinions? xgo? foo? anyone? *sniff*

Pop an .aas file file into the next beta for those of us that have a slit throat connection. It's hard to make comments without making some frags on it. :icon25:

[maz0r]

Actually it was many years back

Sure you're right. But unfortunately it never got the attention like aero, ztn, dm6 and t4. I really liked cpm1a for its fast pace.

Pop an .aas file file into the next beta for those of us that have a slit throat connection. It's hard to make comments without making some frags on it. :icon25:

Good point. Never thought about it. Will hand it in later. Stand by!

Edit: Okay here it comes: Bot file. (~300kb)
Put it into your /baseq3/maps-directory and have fun smashing some bots. Not that smart on the map and since they don't pick up the ra, the fight takes place at ya. Maybe you have to set sv_pure 0 to use this .aas file, but for me it worked without.

[Quack]

Hey maz0r, this is my first time giving feedback so here it goes. Generally speaking I think that the weapon & item placement needs to be more specific to the route that the person is taking. If you get a weapon and go down a pathway away from it, you should get ammo for that weapon within like 5-15 seconds, this would help encourage movement and flow. More importantly, consider where people are going to use ammo and where they will need to restock after getting the weapon. It should not be too far off the path and not placed in a corner that people may not want to walk into. You want to place items and weapons to encourage players to take a certain path.

Regarding transitions, it would be a good idea to place items in hallways so that people can hear the enemy before they are visible. The best example of this would be the curved hallway connecting YA & RA, maybe a few shards or 5h in the center of the hallway so that the person on the ground in RA room or YA can hear the enemy and have a few seconds to prepare. Also, near the LG I think it would be interesting to have two shards and two 5hs on each side of the weapon so that there may be some hesitation before teleporting (Enough time to get shot in the back with a rail)

For stylistic things like lighting and textures, I think you should consider changing the amount of light for interior & exterior (exposed to sky). The interior hallways are way to bright compared to the amount of light from the sky. You should make a clear difference between inside & outside for a more moody environment. So my suggestion would be, make the area exposed to sky bright & make the interior hallways darker (and all of the lighting in general less bright) to make transitions more noticeable. Also, the color of the light texture is yellow and the color of the light is bright white, try using a yellow color scheme for the interior space instead of the white so that it matches the textures displaying on the light.

I've never played q3 tourney extensively so I can't give many specifics about where to place items and how many etc, but I think everything is looking great so far. And like you, I've never finished a map myself (still developing my map from 2001), so your not alone :icon26:

[xgo]

i really like the map.
Some really nice new ideas
The most important thing for me is that its got hight.
I didnt play the map a lot, so i cant make suggestions, but the RA placement is kinda strange but refreshing. Dont know if it will work out.

Also the close corridors might lead to camping.

Will se, have to play it more

GJ man

[poub_]

I liked the texturing better before.

One thing to keep in mind: a good map is a good map, cpma or not. Cpm4, cpm1a and cpm3 come to mind that got played in vq3 as well. Also consider that the cpma community is more likely going to play a good new map than the vq3 community.

Couple of issues here (only skimmed the feedback).
1. With a few slight modifications, this could be a full blown 4v4 map. It's surely not for duel and will be almost too big for 2v2. And remember I'm judging from having played it in cpma which allows me to move faster through the map.

2. The scale is rocket arena-ish. Lots of dead space where nothing is happening. You're also breaking a few "rules" like having 16-unit floors that arent platforms/runways. Also placing for example LG so close to the teleporter doesnt feel right. There's so much dead space which is just one endless corridor or one huge curve with like two ammo packs but nothing else? In the back of your head there should always be the question "Is this area interesting to fight in?" and be harsh to yourself, not just honest, that's when you'll improve.

3. IMO stuff like the suspended light boxes around RA and superthin ledges for trickjumps (also RA room and tele-exit) are a big nono. And not just because it looks off. It tells me you're not working enough with the architecture of the map, didnt plan ahead. RA for example could have a broken off bridge, like RA once stood on a bridge spanning the RA-room and the bridge got blown up or sth, so you just have two repaired bridge heads, look at quad on cpmctf3 for how it's done.

4. Avoid corridors like hell. Make passages instead. For good use of passages look at cpm21 and cpm4. In both there are long ways to go but they are done so that there's more than just a tube.

5. Generally dont force trickjumps or connections. They should be a natural result of your architecture not a ledge stuck on a wall for convenience. Cpm4 is a good example for how to blend tons of tricks into a map without making it look too obvious, cpm3 is a prime example of how to make a map look totally plain but with tons of tricks as well.

[xgo]

the cpm players are worse then vq3. cpm players play 90% cpm3a, while vq3 are searching and playing new maps. Like pukka2, pukka5....

[Foo]

Oh dear.

[maz0r]

poub: I fear, you totally missed the point. This is actually an alpha version. Not beta or even more. Textures are just temporary and so are almost all the other things you mentioned. The small ledges are placeholders, the lights at RA are placeholders, the corridors are kind of placeholders and will be greatly improved, etc.
I am actually aware of not forcing trick jumps and they WILL be way more subtle in the final version. I like the idea with the broken bridge though, will consider inserting something like that.
Can't understand your complains about the size, noone else saw this issue yet, but will wait for further input of course, while keeping your suggestion in mind.
Dunno what you mean with the 16-unit-floors. Could you explain this to me please?

Nevertheless I want to thank you for the effort you put in testing the map. There are - for sure - some nice ideas I will definitively consider for the beta release.

xgo: thanks for your feedback. Glad you liked it somehow. The corridors are my greatest problem at the moment. I'm working on them...

P.S.: Please no argueing about vq3 and cpm here in my thread :icon7: