Continuing map geometry in a _skybox

[Quack]

I would like to use the _skybox feature for the purpose of continuing a wall that connects to a buliding. I've managed to make the _skybox and mess around with the scale. Although, it seems that the sky portal geometry overlaps on the map, or the sky portal geometry doesn't get close enough to the map and leaves a gap. Is it possible to seamlessly integrate sky portal geometry and regular map geometry so they appear to be one structure?

[Amphetamine]

I have been playing with this a little lately, all I can sugest is that you try to hide obvious areas with extra buildups of local geometry outside of windows and things. Remember that mapping is all smoke and mirrors, as long as you can control what the player is seeing then all is well.

Remember also with portal skies that as soon as that portal is in the player's view, the entire skybox geometry will be rendered, which can lead to massive amounts of overdraw if you're not careful. I've done a testrun with a dotproduct2 skybox complete with moving clouds and shadows, but the sudden jump in r_speeds when the player gets near a window and the entire view's worth of terrain is drawn gives quite a hit to frames even on a fairly up to date pc

[Hipshot]

This is very much possible, it just a question about tweaking and understanding scales. Also, you never want the player to be able to enter the _skybox area in any way.

[Quack]

After trying different scales and using a small grid, I finally did manage to get the wall and building to line up perfectly, no gaps. I've got a few ideas how to proceed,

1) Determine scale for _skybox geometry. Are there any benefits/drawbacks to using smaller or bigger _scale?
2) Make the mini-skybox surrounding the _skybox entity. Is there is a limit to the size of the mini-skybox? Can it be taller than it is wide? I know this is all relative to the _scale
3) How far can objects in the sky portal be placed so that performance and clipping distance won't be problem?
4) Has anyone ever attempted created water as far as the eye can see in a _skybox? I'm guessing using the six sided skybox and the sky portal to mimic a horizon.

I would like to build a power plant (the map itself) in the middle of a dam wall (skybox portal geometry). On one side of the wall, there will be water as far as the eye can see. The other side, and all surrounding terrain will be the six sided cube sky. So basically, I want the dam wall and water to be sky portal, and everything else will be built in terragen2. For now, I just would like to get an idea of what is possible with the _skybox.

[Hipshot]

#1 A _skybox scale with a high number will be harder to align to the map and depending on the size, could not contain as much information. As said, it all depends on how big the size of the _skybox area is.

#2 I've done _skyboxes in all different sizes. The map's origin will always be where the _skybox is.

#3 I've made some really huge _skyboxes, never really noted any clipping.

#4 I've done that. But a long time ago, If I were to do that again, it would be much better done since I know so much more now and have a better eye for quality I would like to think.

You should use too much advanced detail in the sky portal, since It will be rendered all the time. Never cull.

[Amphetamine]

I've built a _skybox that's 8192 units per side with the default scale (8x by default iirc, which would make it effectively 65,536 units per side) with no problems. It's height was only 1024 units, so certainly the z height does not have to equal the x or y.

Other things I've learned that may or may not be of use to you are that the skybox may not contain any game entities, or patches, but it may contain compiler only entities, including patches if they are used for a _decal. Aparently misc_model should work within a _skybox, but I've not had any luck with it myself.

Getting water to appear that it's extending "as far as the eye can see" should just be a case of making a very large box and having the water extend so far that the point where it ends and the skybox begins is impossible to determin from any place that the player can view it from. I don't believe that the effect could be done with transparent water. You'll also want to create a custom water shader with a very low number of divisions to avoid massive r_speed hit and also to avoid slowing down q3map2 which will take a very long time to bsp if you have a large deformvertexs wave surface with many divisions. (it's taken over 40 minutes to bsp a level with an 8k x 8k slime surface in a test map I made before).

I hope that helps.

[Hipshot]

misc_model should work within a _skybox, but I've not had any luck with it myself.

Works.

[Quack]

A while back, I made antennas for the powerplant. These antennas went up about 1500 units in the air. To accommodate this, I raised the ceiling of the skybox just for the antennas. This was a horrible idea because it killed compile times. I think the better solution would be continuing the antennas in the sky portal. I could make the antennas go from the building's roof to the top of the skybox and just continue the antennas within the sky portal. Although this may take some precision, I think this may be the best approach to minimize compile times & file size while achieving the same visual effect.

Now, lets say I use a misc_model for the top half of the antenna. This would be ideal because of the fact that misc_models can be scaled, and also textures will be scaled with the model (avoiding mini-brushwork completely) Also, adding a blinking light to the top of the antenna would be a nice finish. I've never really used any modeling programs, but I'm assuming that making an ase from gtkradiant will work for this purpose. Any suggestions on how to build the top half of an antennna with a blinking light(s)?

[Amphetamine]

Any suggestions on how to build the top half of an antennna with a blinking light(s)?

I'd use an autosprite flare texture with rgbgen wave square.

For info about exporting brushwork to a modeling app and back again, I'd check out Kat's site: http://www.katsbits.com/

Hope that helps.

[Quack]

Yes, this has been very helpful. For now, I will test out different scales for the _skybox to determine which is appropriate for my map. The actual size of the map's skybox is about 6000x6000 with height of 3000. The dam wall in comparison will about 1000 units wide. My main goal is to create a map that pushes the boundaries of the quake3 engine. Mainly, this will be achieved by creating a large open space with lots of windows and views to the outside. The only way to make the surrounding area believable enough is to create actual 3d geometry which is why I'm using the _skybox. I know it sounds crazy, but I really want to test the boundaries of this game and try something that hasn't been tried before. All suggestions are welcome :icon26:

edit: Does the size of sky portal geometry affect performence or is it the number of triangles? Would it be possible to add terrain (large mountains, low tris) to the sky portal? These would go in front of the terragen mountains to create a sense of depth.

[Quack]

I would like to allow for expansion maps to be built off the same terragen2 scene & _skybox geometry. The map I'm working on now is a powerplant which is positioned in the middle of a dam wall with a valley on one side and water on the other. I was thinking, it would be interesting to reuse the same terragen2 scene (just reposition cameras), and make a _skybox that reuses some of the basic architectural components (dam wall, water, mountains, etc), then simply alter the _skybox to fit the new location. So for instance, have a water treatment facility out in the water somewhere, with a view of the dam wall and a view of the shoreline. Or, have a city in the valley on the other side of the dam wall looking up at the powerplant. This way, players will be in the same terragen2 scene but looking from a different location. Also, each map will have different gamestyle: big TDM, small TDM, tourney 1v1, FFA, whatever it may be. My goal now is to finish the powerplant map, make the surrounding _skybox geometry and terragen2 scene. Then, create another two or three maps with the same scene but from different locations. I've always felt that quake3 maps really lacked context. With most quake3 maps, you are in the middle of no where, with no real sense of being grounded. Creating multiple maps within the same location will allow for a more realistic environment, because the player will be familiar with his/her surroundings.

What would be the best way to approach this?

A few thoughts.. I should be able to reuse the same terragen2 scene without any alteration. The main problem will occur with the creation of the _skybox. I was thinking that making mini-_skybox models (ase models) would be the best approach (avoid brushwork all together). And then any specific alterations/eye tricks for each map will be done within the _skybox, and if necessary the terragen scene. I would like to work on this project over the next year or so, and really make something spectacular so please don't dismiss as some noob. All suggestions and help are greatly appreciated.

[Tyrantworm]

I am quite interested in this technique. I am, however, tragically visual. would it be possible to post some pics of what you are talking about?

I am particularly interested in seeing these attenae and how you would use the skybox portal instead of raising the "ceiling" -if you will- on the skybox.