Vis issues

[tomboeckx]

Hi all
I’m working on a rather large WWII themed fort style Q3 CTF/Team Arena map
See the screenshots for an idea of the map
[lvlshot]http://www.tomsdevshack.be/files/fort1.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://www.tomsdevshack.be/files/fort2.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://www.tomsdevshack.be/files/fort3.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://www.tomsdevshack.be/files/fort4.jpg[/lvlshot]

So far everything has been going quite well, but my map is suffering some severe performance issues.
As you can see in the screenshots below, the engine draws way more than one would expect.

[lvlshot]http://www.tomsdevshack.be/files/fort5.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://www.tomsdevshack.be/files/fort6.jpg[/lvlshot]

You can clearly see, when i'm looking from the portal behind the tower, it still renders the other tower, which should be completely vis blocked by the center wall (marked by the yellow lines)

I’ve read about every tutorial on the web on optimizing a Q3 map and the VIS process by using hint brushes, but I still don’t understand why the vis process acts the way it does with my map.
I Also realize the q3 engine is not made for this type of map (large open areas), and neither is this map designed with the vis process in mind (I just started making this map for fun, and learned about optimizing too late).
But still, any expert mappers insight or tips on how I could improve this situation would be appreciated.
I included the .map file as a download link so you can have a better look at the situation.
http://www.tomsdevshack.be/files/fortremake.map
Screenshot are taken without lighting also


Mod Edit: Please use [lvlshot.] tags for large images. Thanks.

[mrd]

I had a quick look at your .map file. There seems to be a path of windows (or are they doorways, I didn't really look too hard) that leads directly from one side of the map to the other. If you disable details and patches (CTRL+D and CTRL+P, respectively) you will get a view of what the visibility compiler sees.

See this image of where the visibility line lies. The grid view is in Y-X mode (top view).

http://members.shaw.ca/mrduplicity/rad.jpg

If you place the camera here and move straight forward, you can go directly through to the other side of the map. You'll have to break up this line of sight if you want the other side of the map to stop being drawn all the time.

[tomboeckx]

Oh indeed, I guess I overlooked that hole
My bad. This happened in the attempt of trying to optimize the map, as you can clearly tell by it's design, it used to be completely open, but that didnt work very well at all

I guess i'l need to think of a creative way to remodel some of the paths, and i'm sure i'll get something fun and playable out of it :d
Thx for looking into it mrd ! Anyway, I know now it's not vis acting weird, but me overlooking a direct line of sight. Whoopsie :d

Update: I Fixed the issue, going from 40K+ verts to 14K max, something our GPU will be happy about Apparently that window was indeed causing problems, together with one more doorway. I circumvented this now, so thx for your tip Also the -fast switch doesnt help ! (they should really mention that in the manual for nubs like me

[jal_]

Ye, the -fast switch on vis sux bad.

[mrd]

Update: I Fixed the issue, going from 40K+ verts to 14K max, something our GPU will be happy about Apparently that window was indeed causing problems, together with one more doorway. I circumvented this now, so thx for your tip Also the -fast switch doesnt help ! (they should really mention that in the manual for nubs like me

In all honesty, on today's cards (and even cards from 5 years ago), 40k tris isn't really a big deal. Go run QKQ's Chartres map which has over 120k tris, even then, most cards chew through that with no problem. My computer is 5 years old I get a steady ~70FPS on that map. However, it is still good practice to optimize

And yeah, I'm pretty sure the -fast switch completely bypasses the vis-table calculations and just does a very rough job. Are you using q3map2 or the original q3map? Keep in mind, the original q3map was an internal tool written for the mappers of id software to use. They didn't need a manual because it was created by/for them and was likely released as an after-thought. Paul Jaquays (former id mapper) has a website around somewhere with some good info. about Quake 3 mapping, have a search for it if you're interested.

EDIT: And if you aren't using q3map2, I highly suggest you start now. It's faster in every aspect and has a lot more cool features. And I'm pretty sure it has better documentation than the original q3map

[obsidian]

Yes, -vis -fast basically bypasses the vis process completely, just creating the outer hull only. It's useful for doing quick test compiles.

He's using GtkRadiant 1.5.0, which includes Q3Map 2.5.17.

[tomboeckx]

No worries, I'm using the right tools but thx for the suggestion :d
The 40K tris isnt a problem in itself, but as you can see, the map has barely any details yet so, it would become a problem in the future, therefore i had to take care of my vis probs first;)

And another thing i noticed was when i added 10-12bots, my pc started sweating, but on the other hand, I still need to add clusterportals to improve the bots nav, so that will improve things also