[BETA] 13hive "Iron Hive"

[sst13]

Iron Hive:

Screenshots:


It's a small tourney map based of the same layout like 13dawn "Gothic Dawn". But the design is a completly different. Now it's a spacemap a little bit like q3dm18 "Space Chamber".
FFA and TDM (2vs2) is also supported. There are some more weapons in TDM.


Download Beta1 (5.1 MB)
PK3: map-13hive_b1.pk3
ZIP: map-13hive_b1.zip

sst13...

[deqer]

shit man, this is bad ass. i didn't play it, but the screenshots look good. interesting theme, yet whacky looking sometimes. i'm not sure about the skybox art though. i dunno if i like what i see in hive7.jpg

[Anthem]

Are you looking for feedback on the theme, layout or both?

[sst13]

@deqer: Yes I know, the rail is a little bit dominant.
@Anthem: Just give me everything!

[fKd]

wow! work of art man, really nice almost everything screams quality. nice and original as well... for some reason i was reminded of shadows maps... Have not tried the game play as ill leave that to the pros (Anthem you there?)

if i was to say anything, it would be that the skybox is not great. it annoys my focus for some reason... but apart from that, top effort man!

Art:9.5
Gameplay: Did not play yet/10

[deqer]

@deqer: Yes I know, the rail is a little bit dominant.
@Anthem: Just give me everything!

Actually, I didn't even see that railgun there. I think it's the skybox that's bugging me, and also it's obvious from that screenshot that this is a space map; which I personally don't like, however those walls are a nice way of keeping you secured on that platform prevent from falling off.

[Eraser]

Wow, that skybox is awesome.

[Bliccer]

First impression: Alien! ;D
The skybox is cool. You get somehow a nice 3d effect if you fall down, but it also attracts the eye because of the detailed pics.
During my play I came across some things:
- the metalic texture behind/above the white lights in the walls looks weird
- you should stretch the light texture under the jumppads (the white ones on the small columns)
- The big jumppad: Maybe add some brushes so you also can drop out at the mid level. I didn't want to jump up to the GL but get the 50 health ball.
- Maybe add a hole leading from the GL to the 50 health ball?
- It's easy to get to the Railgun, but you only have 2 ways to the left and the right to escape. Maybe add some small platform next to the jumppad leading from the ground lvl to the rail. (I mean where the 25 health balls are lying); i know you can circle jump down again... but it needs time.

[Kaz]

One thing I noticed is that some lights have dusty beams and others don't, so you might want to choose one or the other. Also, there are four different types of weapon markers (one for RL, one for RA, one for MH, and the one for the rest of the weapons), in the interest of consistency you may want to consolidate, although certainly the RL design makes it more memorable.

Otherwise, I agree about the skybox looking a little odd (it's really cool and Geiger-y, just not sure about how it actually pans out), maybe if you had a generic sky and some portal geometry you could make something more believable or "real" looking.

I really like it overall, I'll second fkd's art rating

[deqer]

(it's really cool and Geiger-y, just not sure about how it actually pans out), maybe if you had a generic sky and some portal geometry you could make something more believable or "real" looking.

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say. The skybox looks awesome, but the problem is that skyboxes are meant to be low detailed backgrounds. Your skybox art is the type of art that should be high detail, and animated(i know it's impossible), but unfortunately skyboxes are meant to be distant backgrounds with low detail. Your skybox makes me want to look at it, and appreciate the art, but when I look at it I feel disgusted because of the nature of a skybox.

If you could change the art so that those tubes are not as close to you. So that the tubes appear to be further away, thus smaller in size, then detail won't matter as much and therefore the skybox would feel better.

[Anthem]

First of all I want to commend you on a well-made and interesting map. If I were to compare this map to anything I have seen before, I would have to compare it to the mapping styles of fKd mixed with those of ShadoW (more specifically q3dmp14 with q3shw22). I really enjoy when mappers are able to put so much complex detail in a map using such basic brushes.

Several aspects of this map are really interesting and appealing. There are some things, though, that detract from the aesthetic effect of the theme of this map. Some small parts are slightly bland due to the monotony of the textures that were used. The textures that were used were great, but sometimes they were overused in certain areas.

Here's an example of a bland area: http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 3hive1.jpg

This could be helped by adding trim to pieces of the pillars, or even changing the textures of some of them.

The other area of concern for me is the skybox. It's interesting, but I don't really like it. I think a portal sky would be much better for the map. A more dynamic sky would help remove the statical nature of the map as well as contribute to the atmosphere.

The item markers don't seem to be too various in the map. I don't think I would count the RL or RA markers as actual markers. The RL one seems just to be a cool marker for the center of the map, and the RA marker is simply a grate with a light underneath.

I also think that if there was ambient fog in the map it would help the atmosphere. It would also be helpful to make the lower part of the map (closer to the void) less visible as if it fades to darkness. This effect could also be aided by fog.

I also think the layout could be changed a bit to make it less unbalanced. At the moment, one can get the MH, RL, RA and YA in about 5 seconds. That's complete and utter control of the map. I need more time to consider alternate layouts that could be used in this map. I will post again when I have ideas on how it could be balanced. So, I will likely post against by the end of tomorrow if not tonight.

Good luck with any changes you make.

Edit with layout suggestions:

I am going to suggest some radical changes to the layout.

The way the layout is currently arranged, it is far too easy to obtain Red Armor and Mega Health. So, in the interest of spreading everything on a fairly small layout, I decided to take some inspiration from House of Decay on Quake Live. Here are the changes I am suggesting (note: I do not expect all of these, if any, suggestions to be enacted; I am simply suggesting a fresh layout hoping that it will help you think about some of the game play in your map):

- Remove the Mega Health and replace it with a Yellow Armor.
- Remove the 50 Health under the Grenade Launcher and replace it with a Yellow Armor.
- Remove the Red Armor from the map and replace it with a Railgun.
- Remove the Railgun and replace it with a Mega Health.
- Remove the 4 shards above where the Mega Health was originally located and change them to 5 +5 Health Bubbles (1 on each tile as opposed to 4 spread over 5 tiles).
- Remove the 4 +5 Health Bubbles on the top level platforms overlooking the double jump pad platform (where the Railgun was originally located) and replace them with armor shards.
- Add a +25 Health Bubble to the vicinity of the upper level teleporter (in front of it so that when a player uses the lower level teleporter he or she gets it upon exiting the teleporter).

The following suggestions are less radical, and I think it is important that they are implemented similarly to even out the distribution of ammunition:

- Remove the Rocket Launcher Ammunition near the Shotgun and replace it with Plasma Gun Cells.
- Remove the Plasma Gun Cells and the Rocket Launcher Ammunition near the Plasma Gun and replace it with Shotgun Shells and Grenade Launcher Ammunition.
- Remove the Shotgun Shells, Machine Gun Bullets and Grenade Launcher Ammunition from near the Yellow Armor close to the Grenade Launcher and add Railgun Bolts to where the Shotgun Shells were located.
- Remove the Grenade Launcher ammunition from the platform opposite of the Grenade Launcher on the top level and replace it with Shotgun Shells. Then swap the locations of the Plasma Cells and the Shotgun Shells so they are on opposite sides of the map when compared to the weapons. (Cells closer to the shotgun, and Shells closer to the plasma gun opposite of the Grenade Launcher on the top level).

Hopefully you understand that these changes are simply to give you an example of how items can be distributed around the map. I'm sure there are other combinations that would work as adequately as the one I have suggested. My reasoning behind the changes:

Splitting the Red Armor into two more Yellow armors spreads the armor around the map, but the placement of the Yellow Armors makes it almost impossible for a player not to get two Yellow Armors at a time. If a player gets the Yellow Armor from where the Mega Health was placed or from where the Yellow Armor was originally placed in your layout, he or she can easily access the Yellow Armor placed where the +50 Health Bubble was originally located in your layout. This means that the value of the Red Armor is not gone, it is simply placed elsewhere. This also leaves a Yellow armor for the player who steals the Mega Health, however. How is this balanced? In order to get the Mega Health, a player must travel to the outskirts of the map. However, you should notice that the prominent weapons are located on the central area of the map. From the middle Yellow Armor (where the +50 Health Bubble was previously located in your layout), a player has a prime location to receive the Rocket Launcher, Railgun and Grenade Launcher. These weapons, contrasted with those on the outside of the map (Shotgun and Plasma Gun) are much more useful. Thus, I would have to say that the gameplay would be rather competitive and balanced. The weapons will be fought over just as much as the larger pick ups, and that just adds to the fun of the map.

If you notice, the values of health and armor in my layout compared to your layout have barely changed. There is a bit more armor in my layout than in yours, but there is just about an equal amount of health due to the +5 Health Bubbles near the Yellow Armor closest to the Shotgun. The reason why I am suggesting that you redistribute the ammunition in a way similar to the way I distributed it is because there is a ton of ammunition in your map, and a lot of it isn't strategically placed (i.e. Grenade Launcher Ammunition near the Grenade Launcher, etc.). I am hoping you understand why how I went about the changes to the layout and that I was able to help you formulate a more balanced layout.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. With that said, I wish you luck in creating the final version of your map. It's a really nice map, and I enjoyed looking at it. Well done!

P.S. The pillars that move upward upon walking on them do not seem to move at exactly the same speed. Take another look at that and try to fix it.

[Anthem]

I'm not sure if editing gives topics a "new response" marker, but if not this BUMP will. If anyone knows for future reference, feel free to PM me or reply here.

[sst13]

Yes the skybox isn't really a "sky" but I found it's a gorgeous environment and want to use it. I played a lot with bots and the sky doesn't annoy me in any way.
The r_speeds are +20k in some spots, so I don't want to insert complex additional geometry (portalsky setting) or fog. Won't somebody please think of the low end systems.

The missing lightbeams are fixed on all round lights.

Special thanks to Anthem for the detailed comment.
ShadoWs q3shw23 really was the trigger to use evillairs fantastic eX texture set. (I even wrote some shaders to integrate the specular maps.)

I don't like the "bland area" too. It's also a bit too symetrical. I'm trying to bring some difference in this area.
Yes there is only one real item marker. And I think it's good so.

Now I'm testing your item set.

[praetorian]

First of all, I would like to congratulate you on a well-made map! From many aspects it has serious level of quality in it. Finally someone dared (and successfully managed) to make a 1on1 space map with a type of game-play, and as complex as q3dm18 "Space Chamber".

…and there are more than a few great things that could be said about ‘Iron Hive’, but I’d like to leave those for reaviewers on ..::LVL, …and focus on some ideas and suggestions that I’d like you to consider:

Layout changes:
- I have a suggestion considering that ‘blend area’ that was used as example by Anthem (a ‘wall’ vied from small floating platform where a RG is standing now): I think that it should stay symmetrical, but that, on both sides, you should lose (or cut to a certain height) the middle one of three columns ‘hiding’ jump-pad routes from lateral to upper middle platforms. That way jumpers can see ‘more clearly’ what goes on the small floating platform, but also that jump for them becomes a little dangerous if on the platform is someone good with RG
- I think I will have some more suggestions for layout changes latter on, but I’m not sure about them right now… I’ll have to test a map some more for those… I just feel something is missing, but I’m not sure what? The highest level, around the central area and too lateral ‘rooms’ seems too flat… maybe. I think something should be lowered, or upped, or sloped, or stair-ed, I’m not sure.
- And for some reason a jump-pad behind GL constantly comes to mind, connecting one side of upper level to the other… sending players through the air at the wall above the 2 ammunition packs… or, with clever ‘of the floor’ bouncing, all the way to small floating outer platform where a RG is standing now.

Item placement:
- It would be nice if You would allow us, as well, to test Anthem’s suggestion for item positioning I had some suggestions of my own for that, but I think he’s ideas are good, and I think You should change item placement accordingly. I especially agree on ‘ton of ammunition in your map’ (especially for 1on1 games) Anthem’s point of view.
- I think there is one more item missing in your map, and that is personal teleporter! No matter how good the player is, falling throw those 4 holes in the middle of your map (and not only those) is unavoidable, caused either by his mistake or been bounced of another by players rocket. The good place for personal teleporter could be floating between two upper middle platforms, that now have 2 +5 Health Bubbles each, on that ‘bland area wall’ vied from where a RG is standing now.
- On those two lateral platforms that carry SG and PG (previously mentioned), maybe you could move ammunition to the other outer edge, aside from the ‘falling spot, from jump-pads from small floating platform’.
- Maybe you could allow players to reach, with rocket-jump, those 3 boxes behind the upper teleporter… and even add +25 Health Bubble on top of them. I know it would make it a camper’s spot, at a price of rocket-jumping, of course. But, in a way, it’s a punishment to teleported player for his easy way to the upper platform. Just a thought, actually … because I wanted to reach them more than a few times

Texture issues:
- I have to say that I completely agree with Anthem’s comment on color qualities of texture set used… and problems that thay produce. I recently wrote a suggestion to Sumatra, for his map [BETA] pukka3ctf2, about ‘lack of color’ on his map. ..well, it also applies to your map. I would suggest widening your extremely constricted color spectrum, to few more colors, or at least shades of colors, and by that differentiating the materials used.
- And… I am annoyed a little with that skybox, as others are… I feel frozen in the moment of been swallowed by some character form Geiger’s art… and I would like you to consider changing it, or at least something about it… just maybe give it a try in the next beta version, and see how people react to it. If I could make a suggestion, it would be something like a night version of fkd’s ‘Null and Void’ skybox…but don’t mind my wishful thinking.
- Than again… just wondering, how would your map look within the skybox from ‘Null and Void’ map, bathed with a white sun … with shadows emphasizing beautiful form of those pillars of yours

[ShadoW_86]

I like what you did with the textures set .

[nitin77]

this looks really great

[sst13]

*Update*

- The lower level catwalks are now a bit wider.
- In tournament mode spawns the alternative item layout by Anthem. (I hope I changed it correctly.)
- The ammo is also changed to the suggestion by Anthem.
- In FFA Mode the crates are now accessible by rocketjump, holding a personal-teleporter.
- Some details for the bland areas.

Download Beta2 Update (1.3 MB) The Beta1 PK3 ist still required! (for the textures)
PK3: map-13hive_b2.pk3
ZIP: map-13hive_b2.zip

PS: The delay of the lift-segments are not a bug, it's a feataure.

[deqer]

hey buddy, i was waiting for beta 2 and now i tried it but i didn't play the map because of missing textures.

see attachments

[sst13]

Download Beta2 Update (1.3 MB) The Beta1 PK3 ist still required! (for the textures)

[Anthem]

It's difficult to say whether or not the layout would work as adequately as I first predicted since it was pretty theoretical. The weapon imbalance may totally counter the health or armor distribution. If the weapon imbalance is too potent, you could always swap the Shotgun or Plasma Gun for the Lightning Gun to give the player who goes after Mega Health a good weapon. I'm not sure.

I'm curious to see others' comments on the new layout. Remember: "/g_gametype 1".

[praetorian]

I am planning to test your map some more with my friend at work these days … but what I could think of so far… is in the following short text:

I really like how from that brainstorming of ours a personal teleporter appeared on those boxes in FFA game… but I still have a feeling that it should appear in 1on1 game as well! First of all, one needs a RL to get it, and he pays a price in “blood” for it… so it doesn’t come cheap. Second, it adds a little magic to gameplay, but a “wise” kind of magic… that doesn’t make one dominating as other power-ups… and it doesn’t happened too often. And third… it sometime helps with that “void issue” discussed before. So, once more, I’d like you to consider:

Vote 1: Adding a personal teleporter on those three boxes in a 1on1 game!

The idea of RL and RG been so close to each other is a more than a little unusual, and teoretically, I’m always against it… but on this map, I love it !!! First of all, that part of the map is veeeeerrryy hard to protect and camp on! “Rising competition” can run for one of two top weapons from any direction… from camper’s behind as well… Second, those four holes are still dangerous enough … for falling into! Third, there are too many “goods” around for a camper to be camping there… and four, I do agree with Anthem’s suggestion for lowering that weapon imbalance, in following text... but for now, I’d like to vote for:

Vote 2: Leave Rocket Launcher and Rail Gun where they are right now!

Maps come in different kinds and types, and wideness in a 1on1 gametype is a characteristic of this one! In those types, Shotguns don’t seem too handy… they lose their charm a little. Considering weapon imbalance issue mentioned before, (and I am not a big fan of Lightning Gun ) I think it would be good for you to consider:

Vote 3a: Replacing Shotgun with Lightning (and all their ammunition boxes as well) …It would give a little more power to that “outer rim” player of ours… and even the odds.

There is a serious thought in my mind that a GL is not such a useful weapon on this map, especially with that much holes between platforms and walls… there is not much for a grenade to bounce from. I wonder if other people share my point of view? For that place in the map, however, up from two jumppad rutes and overseen RL bridge, it seems I always switch to shotgun… and knock down those “flying ducks” …so, I would like to suggest, and I am pretty sure about it, that you should:

Vote 3b: Loose the Grenade Launcher on this map, and put a Shotgun in its place! (and switch all of their ammunition boxes as well)

I checked out some of my favorite 1on1 maps… and the best one (Hipshot’s Crescent, of course ) as well as others have much lower amount of ammunition boxes than yours… and that fact can add to a game a possibility of not been able to make that final shot count, if you don’t pay a little attention to your ammo. It’s also a “wise” kind of magic, in it’s own way… so, I would like to suggest, to:

Vote 4: Lower the amount of ammunition on the map even more!
Suggestion 4a: Delete RG ammo next to SG (now LG) and leave only one next to the YA.
Suggestion 4b: Delete RL ammo next to the YA and leave only the one next to the MH. On the opposite side of the jumppad, on the platform of that YA add one more MG ammo-box.
Suggestion 4c: Delete GL ammo next to PG.
Suggestion 4d: Replace three ammo boxes standing next to each other with just one SG ammo-box.

All this might seem strange… but to me, somehow, it makes prefect sense. I gave it some thought, and I’m certain you should (at least) give it a try.

And, considering that Anthem’s health&armor item placement theory, I think things work much better this way. I think Anthem didn’t plan it, but it turned out that “fastest to pick” health items (3 of 4 25H+) are now positioned closer to the MH zone, and “fastest to pick” armor is “in the back of the map (2 of 3 YA). From a certain perspective, this also works good… makes a surviving (with intention to camp) player “come out to open and grab some health bubbles” from that central area. For adjusting that balance juuuuuust a little, I would like you to consider to:

Vote 5: Delete that 25H+ bubble in front of the teleporter, and leave just those 3+5 green5+ health bubbles close to the central area. … think about it … I believe it would work well.

Other than that:
Opinion 6: Lower level catwalk works better … and I think rather good, actually.
Opinion 7: I am not a fan of ‘new details in the blend area’ … previous version was better … or adding some more details would also be better …
Suggestion 8: and I’d stick to my original thesis that you should lose the middle column on both sides
Suggestion 9: Make ground markings under all YA the same, maybe even like the one under RL, only without everything ‘out of the circle’.

…and everything should work … just fine

Cheers … I’m off to sleep.

[praetorian]

I'm curious to see others' opinions about these suggestions of mine... as well as yours, sst13

[monaster]

Beautiful map!
To strenghten that feeling of depth when you fall off the map you might make the distance to your "skybox" (or to the nearest weapon clip covering the skybox, whatever you used) a bit longer, so grenades, rockets and so on fired into the 13hive's skybox do not disappear too early thus destroying the illusion of space.

[sst13]

Sorry for the long abstinence, but here comes beta #3

Changes:
- switched back to my original item layout (except the ammo), sorry but i decided to keep my version.
- scaled skybox textures from 512 to 1024
- added detail stage in skybox shader (set "r_detailtextures 1" for H.R. Giger or "r_detailtextures 0" for simple clouds. + vid_restart)
- changed some minor details
- hid a little secret.

Download Beta3: (5.5 MB)
PK3: map-13hive_b3.pk3
ZIP: map-13hive_b3.zip


@praetorian:
A personal teleporter can be fun in ffa games but in 1v1 it's really annoying if someone disappears in front of your rockets.
I'm not a big fan of Lightning Gun too. And for my taste the map is a little bit too open. I don't want to end up with: "shaaaaaaaaaft...rail" all the time.
The Grenade Launcher is very useful for spamming the YA, MH and the upper teleporter-exit. Also from the rail-platform to the lower level catwalk.

[deqer]

you still waiting on feedback? maybe time for you to try harder for us now. post new screenshots of the stuff you changed, give a summary and a brief list of remaining todos if any. maybe make a video of you running around it and playing it, post it on youtube or something.