Basic science question...

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werldhed
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Post by werldhed »

ToxicBug wrote:Heh, I'm guessing that tnf would answer these quite easily. I know nothing about biology and I'm afraid of the bio class I have to take in orde r to get my diploma :(
Meh, they aren't so bad. I already know the answer but I needed to check some details online. It's just damn boring.
I had some earlier questions that were much more difficult:

"Design an experiment to test if laminin-1 works to reverse the phenotype by altering ErbB2 expression/activity in mammary carcinoma cells."

and so forth...
tnf
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Post by tnf »

dna-rna-protein.
that's all i know about molecular biology.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Nightshade wrote:
ToxicBug wrote:By the way, I really think that you need to be in mechanical engineering to do this sort of physics, since its not in any of the obligatory science courses at my school, I'm taking a "Physics For Engineers" optional course (gotta take 3 optional courses) and because of this course I've decided not to go into engineering in university :paranoid:
No, you don't need to be in an ME program. That material is covered in a first semester physics course.
Why didn't anyone here think about it then?
werldhed
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Post by werldhed »

tnf wrote:dna-rna-protein.
that's all i know about molecular biology.
I plan to forget it all as soon as I can. You know, to make room for important things.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

ToxicBug wrote:
Nightshade wrote:
ToxicBug wrote:By the way, I really think that you need to be in mechanical engineering to do this sort of physics, since its not in any of the obligatory science courses at my school, I'm taking a "Physics For Engineers" optional course (gotta take 3 optional courses) and because of this course I've decided not to go into engineering in university :paranoid:
No, you don't need to be in an ME program. That material is covered in a first semester physics course.
Why didn't anyone here think about it then?
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

Nightshade wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:so mathematically 1/infinity right?
Errm, well, technically if you evaluate the limit of 1/x as x goes to infinity, it's zero, but I don't see the direct connection to the sphere/ground issue.
well coz if it's 0 it wouldn't be touching, which is sorta paradoxical.

the way i see it, as the object approaches perfect "sphericality", the proportion of the object in contact with the ground approaches zero.

so if it was a hexagon, it would be 1/6 touching ground, an octagon 1/8, etc...

so 1/n where n approaches infinity.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

to be honest it has been a long time since i've thought about a problem like this one. moment of inertia didn't even pop into my head into much later in the problem...but it should have because we are basically just looking at an application of newt's first law.....
tnf
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Post by tnf »

[xeno]Julios wrote:
Nightshade wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:so mathematically 1/infinity right?
Errm, well, technically if you evaluate the limit of 1/x as x goes to infinity, it's zero, but I don't see the direct connection to the sphere/ground issue.
well coz if it's 0 it wouldn't be touching, which is sorta paradoxical.

the way i see it, as the object approaches perfect "sphericality", the proportion of the object in contact with the ground approaches zero.

so if it was a hexagon, it would be 1/6 touching ground, an octagon 1/8, etc...

so 1/n where n approaches infinity.
yea, but the paradox is kind of based on the assumption that we could make whatever the sphere is made of infinitely reducible...

which we can't.

What you are describing sounds, to me, a bit like Zeno's paradox.
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

werldhed wrote: -Describe a culture-independent method of identifying an organism.

as in labelling an organism? Well if we're using words to identify it it's already culturally tainted (unless the nomenclature is perfectly isomorphic to some "objective" taxonomic principle).

then you have the issue of criteria of identification - ultimately a genotypic classification would be ideal, but practically you might be looking for higher level phenotypic features that are discriminable through the naked eye or dissection.

is that the sort of issue you're dealing with or have i misconstrued the question?
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

tnf wrote:
yea, but the paradox is kind of based on the assumption that we could make whatever the sphere is made of infinitely reducible...

which we can't.

What you are describing sounds, to me, a bit like Zeno's paradox.
i'm talking purely about a mathematically abstract sphere and surface. It's a geometry question. There is a well defined answer - my hunch is that the answer is 1/infinity percent.
Guest

Post by Guest »

[xeno]Julios wrote:
tnf wrote:
yea, but the paradox is kind of based on the assumption that we could make whatever the sphere is made of infinitely reducible...

which we can't.

What you are describing sounds, to me, a bit like Zeno's paradox.
i'm talking purely about a mathematically abstract sphere and surface. It's a geometry question. There is a well defined answer - my hunch is that the answer is 1/infinity percent.
What is 1/infinity? What is 1/0?
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

ToxicBug wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
tnf wrote:
yea, but the paradox is kind of based on the assumption that we could make whatever the sphere is made of infinitely reducible...

which we can't.

What you are describing sounds, to me, a bit like Zeno's paradox.
i'm talking purely about a mathematically abstract sphere and surface. It's a geometry question. There is a well defined answer - my hunch is that the answer is 1/infinity percent.
What is 1/infinity? What is 1/0?
yes - but the point is that you can understand the quantity as the limit of a process, and that's what the equation denotes. There's more information in 1/infinity than simply 0 it seems.
Guest

Post by Guest »

[xeno]Julios wrote:
ToxicBug wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote: i'm talking purely about a mathematically abstract sphere and surface. It's a geometry question. There is a well defined answer - my hunch is that the answer is 1/infinity percent.
What is 1/infinity? What is 1/0?
yes - but the point is that you can understand the quantity as the limit of a process, and that's what the equation denotes. There's more information in 1/infinity than simply 0 it seems.
Well what is infinity? Is infinity a number? How can a number be infinity?
tnf
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Post by tnf »

ToxicBug wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
tnf wrote:
yea, but the paradox is kind of based on the assumption that we could make whatever the sphere is made of infinitely reducible...

which we can't.

What you are describing sounds, to me, a bit like Zeno's paradox.
i'm talking purely about a mathematically abstract sphere and surface. It's a geometry question. There is a well defined answer - my hunch is that the answer is 1/infinity percent.
What is 1/infinity? What is 1/0?
YOU CAN'T DIVIDE BY 0!!!

wrong!!!!

;)
Guest

Post by Guest »

tnf wrote:
ToxicBug wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote: i'm talking purely about a mathematically abstract sphere and surface. It's a geometry question. There is a well defined answer - my hunch is that the answer is 1/infinity percent.
What is 1/infinity? What is 1/0?
YOU CAN'T DIVIDE BY 0!!!

wrong!!!!

;)
Of course you can't, neither can you divide by infinity, since its not a number.
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

ToxicBug wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
ToxicBug wrote: What is 1/infinity? What is 1/0?
yes - but the point is that you can understand the quantity as the limit of a process, and that's what the equation denotes. There's more information in 1/infinity than simply 0 it seems.
Well what is infinity? Is infinity a number? How can a number be infinity?
i dunno the right formulation - been years since i took calculus - but i remember solving equations that ended with 1/infinity aka 0.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

yea, but doing the limit of 1/x as x--> infinity is not quite the same as just dividing by infinity is it?
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

i guess so,

just that i don't feel comfy with a simple 0 as the answer as that seems illogical...
Chupacabra
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Re: Basic science question...

Post by Chupacabra »

Chupacabra wrote:...with a twist. Obviously very unrealistic, but a good theory question.

A train is moving 3/4ths the velocity of light (c = 300,000 km/sec) relative to a lamp post. Assume that a person is running 3/4ths the velocity of light on top of the train.

What is the velocity of the person relative to the lamp post?

edit: the person is running 3/4ths the velocity of light relative to the train.

This question was put forth by a famous physicist named George Gamow. You might have heard of him.

Anyway, the correct answer of course is based on the fact that he can't move faster than the speed of light. But why or more specifically what is his velocity is a bit more tricky. The right answer is (24/25)c.

The basic idea as far as I understand it is that the classical vector addition theorem is wrong. It works for most practical purposes, but it isnt 100% correct. And the larger the numbers you're dealing with, the more off you get.

In other words, any time you want to combine (for lack of a better term) two velocities, you can't just add them up. Two velocities cannot simply be added together. An explanation below is provided.

In order to explain best I'm just going to quote George Gamow from his book: "Mr Tompkins in Wonderland"
According to the theorem of addition the total velocity should be one and half times that of light, and the running tramp should be able to overtake the beam of light from a signal lamp. The truth, however, is that since the constancy of the velocity of light is an experimental fact, the resulting velocity in our case must be smaller than we expect--it cannot surpass the critical value c; and thus we come to the conclusion that, for smaller velocities also, the classical theorem of addition must be wrong.

The mathematical treatment of the problem, into which I do not want to enter here, leads to a very simple new formula for the calculation of the resulting velocity of two superimposed motions.

if v1 and v2 are the two velocities to be added, the resulting velocity comes out to be:

V = (v1 +/- v2)/(1 +/- ((v1)(v2))/c^2)

(er in case my brackets aren't right and to get a clearer picture, I drew it in Paint:)

Image

(he goes on to say that for small velocities (compared to the speed of light), you can neglect the second term in the denominator for most practical purposes)

In a particular case, when one of the original velocities is c, the forumula gives c for the resulting velocity independent of what the second velocity may be. Thus, by overlapping any number of velocities, we can never surpass the velocity of light.

You might also be interested to know that this forumla has been proved experimentally and it was really found that the resultant of two velocities is always somewhat ersmaller than their arithmetical sum.
ta da
werldhed
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Post by werldhed »

[xeno]Julios wrote:
werldhed wrote: -Describe a culture-independent method of identifying an organism.

as in labelling an organism? Well if we're using words to identify it it's already culturally tainted (unless the nomenclature is perfectly isomorphic to some "objective" taxonomic principle).

then you have the issue of criteria of identification - ultimately a genotypic classification would be ideal, but practically you might be looking for higher level phenotypic features that are discriminable through the naked eye or dissection.

is that the sort of issue you're dealing with or have i misconstrued the question?
:olo:
me --> :dork:
I was so confused. I had to read that a couple of times before I realized what you were talking about. No, you're thinking of a completely different issue. I paraphrased the question (there was more to it) but "culture-independent" refers to growth culture and the organism in question is an unknown microbe. I need to describe how to identify it without isolating and growing it in a lab.

You did nail one point on the head: genotyping vs phenotyping. In a culture-independent approach, you would isolate dna, do rep-PCR, sequence the dna fragments you end up with, and compare them to known genomic databases (i.e. genotype identification). Contrast that to a culture-dependent approach, where you would grow isolated colonies of bacteria and test various phenotypes (gram +/-, acid fast, morphology, etc) and identify the organism that way.
hax103
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Re: Basic science question...

Post by hax103 »

Ahhh, I was wondering when the first physics-knowledgeable person would appear. That question, the tunnel, and the twins questions are pretty well known. And you didnt even get away from special relativity!

[Chupacabra wrote]:
This question was put forth by a famous physicist named George Gamow. You might have heard of him.

Anyway, the correct answer of course is based on the fact that he can't move faster than the speed of light. But why or more specifically what is his velocity is a bit more tricky. The right answer is (24/25)c.

...
-
old nik (q3w): hack103
Wizard .3
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Post by Wizard .3 »

It's all relativity. Classical physics works cause we're all more or less working in the same reference, but when you start playing around with the speed of light, simply equations that work fine for moving cars become all fucked up.
Chupacabra
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Re: Basic science question...

Post by Chupacabra »

deleted post
Last edited by Chupacabra on Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

werldhed wrote: I paraphrased the question (there was more to it) but "culture-independent" refers to growth culture and the organism in question is an unknown microbe.
:olo: :olo:

here i was thinking you were working on a philosophy of biology thesis or something.
[xeno]Julios
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 1999 8:00 am

Re: Basic science question...

Post by [xeno]Julios »

hax103 wrote:Ahhh, I was wondering when the first physics-knowledgeable person would appear.
he is the one that asked the question at the beginning of this thread!
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