EU constitution

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:08 pm

The US is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic.

I think Europe will impose what it believes are policies for the societal good at the cost of individual freedoms.

Post by **Postal** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:12 pm

It's better than policies aimed at the good of a few people at the cost of individual freedoms.

: /

Post by **Pext** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:31 pm

the reason is that in europe, social safeness is considered a higher good than individual freedoms ( i'm not implying that it would be a binary choice!). the origins of americas high valuation of individual freedoms are certainly the 'new land' situation, the first settlers faced; the situation they came from when they built up their state.
in europe on the other hand, democracy took a long way to develop and had many stones in it's way. so europe's economy and especially it's form of capitalism started out hand in hand with potent monarchs and immediately lived through 2 major leftist movements: the french revolution and socialism, each influencing it quite a bit. europe did not have a liberal and individual base for economic development to a high degree as the US had it - but on the other hand europe never had the cruel monster of unleashed capitalism, with all it's ambivalence, as Steinbeck describes it in The Grapes of Wrath.

you can't see europe's/US mind culture without looking at the origins

in europe, a safe position of wealth is considered higher then individual rights; and accumulation of wealth. europe certainly adopted a few virtues of socialism - that's why especially germany's economic system is called social maket economy. but it's slowly getting 'americanized' as we would say here.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:47 pm

http://www.heritage.org/research/featur ... ntries.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/research/featur ... id=Germany

Germany is indeed becoming more friendly to business, thanks to Schroeder I suppose.

Post by **Pext** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:53 pm

people are complaining though

- the problem here is that it's nearly impossible for a government to scrap the old, patchwork system and build a new one. this is why there is quite a bit confusion about the situation even here.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:57 pm

Are people complaining because they are so dependent on the government? What do east germans think?

If you look on the list, Canada is economically more free than Germany. Our economic success though, is largely tied to the US, as with their prosperity in the 90's. When the US economy went to shit under Bush, Canada wasn't as badly effected (if I recall). I think we're still doing well as the US economy is improving now.

Post by **Pext** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:01 am

people are complaining because the economy friendly atmosphere is made - as they state - at the cost of social performances; i.e. decreasing unemployment benefit and welfare.

it really is a bit of a battle between socialist tendencies to take much from those who have much (VAT, inheritance tax) and to lower the costs for the poor...

Post by **Ryoki** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:08 am

Massive Quasars wrote:The french law banning the wearing of muslim hijab in government institutions.

I hate how this law has become known as the banning of headscarves. The law bans any public display of any religion in goverment institutions - not just muslims are the 'victim' here. France is a republic and thus it's only logical her public servants should act according to one of it's founding principles; the seperation of church and state.

Racist? Imposing one culture on other cultures? Bullshit. If you don't agree with it, don't work for the goverment or use their institutions.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:31 am

Ryoki, I believe this policy is in place in public schools and universities.

Post by **SplishSplash** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:52 am

Massive Quasars wrote:Laws infringing on freedom of speech over offensive remarks, political correctness gone too far.

Last time I checked, kids didn't get arrested in school for drawing violent pictures in Europe. Last time I checked, we had something similar to independent media.

It is true that in Germany I can't say "Auschwitz is a lie". So what? When would I say that anyways? I can say anything else though, including "IMO, George Bush is a repressed homosexual who starts wars to make up for his tiny penis.". Try saying that in an American school and then tell me about the lack of freedom in Europe. (I could say that in a German school about Gerhard Schröder and nothing would happen.)

Also, our teachers do not have the freedom to teach 'creationism'.
Oh, how I miss that freedom!

And we can't legally own guns (at least not without a lot of hassle).
Oh no, I'm don't have the freedom of getting shot!

In Germany, I will not get sued for rape just because I had sex with a 16-year-old, or because I had sex with an intoxicated woman.
Where, did you say, did we take political correctness too far?

Teachers can't wear their headscarfs in school? Well GREAT, because I think it's safe to assume that any teacher who is THAT crazy about wearing a headscarf is probably crazy in several other departments as well.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:57 am

Splish ffs, I'm not comparing Germany to the US. The US is pretty fucked up in many ways.

I was strictly criticising Europe, and only Europe, not comparing it to other nations.

Freedom is not freedom if it isn't for all citizens. It's not that I like hijabs, I simply support the right of women to wear them if they choose. What's the problem?

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:57 am

Also, students aren't allowed to wear hijabs either.

Post by **SplishSplash** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:59 am

Massive Quasars wrote:Also, students aren't allowed to wear hijabs either.

That must be France only.
I can't really say I disapprove. They're symbols of suppression, plain and simple.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:05 am

SplishSplash wrote: That must be France only.
I can't really say I disapprove. They're symbols of suppression, plain and simple.

What about religious freedom? Anti-religious policies don't exterminate religious beliefs, they send them underground. This attitude of apathy toward government restrictions because they don't affect you, is unhealthy.

Post by **SplishSplash** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:08 am

I'm not apathetic, I approve.
I also approve of many other restrictions, some or even most of them affecting me directly.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:10 am

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't believe in the tyranny of majority rule on the minority.

Post by **SplishSplash** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:26 am

You prefer to believe in the tyranny of religion and sexism.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:31 am

No. Religion looses it's influence in free and progressive societies. I don't think we should impose anti-religious policies. I support the right of women to wear hijabs, that's not at all sexist. Rape and discriminations laws already exist to deal with those issues.

I support academic freedom of speech, and individual freedoms.

Post by **SplishSplash** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:35 am

Yeah, only we have no proof that Islam will lose it's influence in a laissez-faire environment. Right now, it definitely seems like the opposite is true.

And what looks to you like "the freedom to wear headscarfs" is really just the freedom of their families to make them wear headscarfs or beat the crap out of them.

Post by **SplishSplash** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:35 am

night night

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:39 am

alright nite then, ttyl

Post by **Ryoki** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:04 am

Massive Quasars wrote:Ryoki, I believe this policy is in place in public schools and universities.

Yes, public institutions, built with tax money.
What's your point?

Post by **Pext** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:11 am

you're not getting the point MQ - it's not anit-religious policies; everybody is free to express his religion - but not in duty

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:18 am

Students can't wear hijabs there. That is my point. I don't care that it's a government institution, some people have no alternative but to go to public schools.

The majority should not impose arbitrary dress code upon everyone. The exception being perhaps for obscene clothing, or clothing that reveals too much in public.

Post by **Ryoki** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:20 am

Massive Quasars wrote: Freedom is not freedom if it isn't for all citizens. It's not that I like hijabs, I simply support the right of women to wear them if they choose. What's the problem?

I don’t think you understand… the law doesn’t forbid people to wear religious symbols altogether, it forbids wear of them in public, government funded institutions. People are as free to do whatever they please at home and on the streets as they ever were. If they feel they must display their religious symbols 24/7, then fine!

Just don’t do it in the role of a public servant, or in a public institution, because that eats away at the credibility of the entire system.